Dayna Frank is CEO of First Avenue Productions. She’s also the co-founder and first President of the Board of the National Independent Venue Association. We discuss her involvement in the passage of the Save Our Stages Act and the formulation of the new TICKET Act and the ins and outs of getting things accomplished in D.C. as well as concert promotion in the Twin Cities. Dayna is a powerhouse, she gets things done!

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dayna-frank/id1316200737?i=1000647520971

https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/9ff4fb19-54d4-41ae-ae7a-8a6f8d3dafa8/episodes/a912f67c-fbaf-4dda-89d6-b71db5c47472/the-bob-lefsetz-podcast-dayna-frank

“Lost Angel: The Genius of Judee Sill”

Website: https://shorturl.at/ALP03

Trailer: http://tinyurl.com/mutzbddn

It creeped me out, in a good way.

I got e-mail from Cheryl Strayed, telling me her documentarian husband had made a movie about Judee Sill…did I know who she was, would I watch it?

Of course I know who Judee Sill is/was. She was on Asylum Records, and she was the only initial signing other than Ned Doheny who didn’t break through.

Now in truth there’s a documentary about everyone these days. Oftentimes done on a budget, hagiography for diehard fans only. And normally it would have been hard to say yes, but Cheryl Strayed? How can I say no?

Now in truth there is evidence and there is not. There’s some video footage, a bunch of audio and some diaries. So at first the film seems slim. But then…

The first third is the backstory. Which is pretty unique. Going to jail for robbery, becoming a prostitute to pay for her heroin habit and ending up in reform school, where she honed her chops playing the church organ.

David Geffen said he didn’t care about all that, he was concerned with the artist and the songs. And when Geffen believed in you…

Let’s not forget, Geffen made Laura Nyro a star, and after she left him, well, refused to move from Columbia to Asylum, she never had another hit. Never mind sacrificing her publishing when Geffen promptly sold it.

Managers make a difference. It’s oftentimes hard to quantify what they do, but sans a manager no one has ever made it. You need someone to believe in you, to not only look out for you, but push you, take advantage of opportunities, never mind create opportunities.

But Judee Sill could never write a hit. A hit back then was something that was played regularly on FM radio. And either an act got airplay or was nowhere. FM had a wider playlist than AM, but there were not unlimited slots. It’s not like today where other than a few acts pushed by the majors everybody is cottage industry. Judee Sill was built for today, when the gatekeepers don’t matter, when you can go direct to fan, when you can build it yourself.

So I never heard Judee Sill. I saw her albums in the bins, but I never purchased one. Money was limited. And if it wasn’t on the radio you had to buy it to hear it, and most people did not. That’s also contrary to today, when everything can be heard, even for free. Sure, it’s hard to gain someone’s attention, but if you do and you’ve got the chops, they’ll tell everybody they know, you can build a solid career, that is anything but evanescent, careers built on hits can fade away, but not those built on one to one bonds between fans and artists.

So, Sill’s dream comes true. She lives large on the advances, and then it all evaporates.

Well, never forget that Sill was born in 1944. She came of age in the early sixties, before the Beatles, when the most most people knew about Southern California was from network TV. There were not only beatniks in San Francisco, but Los Angeles too. Sill got by by the skin of her teeth. She survived on nothing when that was still possible.

And she made contacts, with Jim Pons of the Turtles and…

J.D. Souther.

I didn’t know that. That’s the heart of the movie, well, that and a slew of other boyfriends. J.D. inspired her most famous song, and not in a good way. She could never get over J.D.

We get more footage and more insight into J.D. in this movie than anywhere previously. We get a feel for the turn of the decade, from the sixties to the seventies, when Los Angeles was the epicenter of the music business and there was no social media, little news at all, and we had no idea how these inspired hedonistic musicians lived and created these legendary songs.

But it came to an end. There’s some hokum about her alienating David Geffen, but he denies it. Geffen says he was gone from the label by time she was dropped. And Geffen famously did move on.

But when things didn’t turn out for her, Sill was not calm and peaceful, she was pissed, and acted accordingly.

This side of life is rarely depicted. Most of these musicians have no C.V. It’s not like if things don’t work out they can work at the bank, even work anywhere, they’re not good with showing up, time. They’re heroes, and suddenly they’re zeros. You put in your all, you believe in yourself, but the public doesn’t react. How do you cope then?

Well, Sill got back on drugs. You’ve got to soothe the pain somehow. And there was a car accident, and maybe a boyfriend pushed her down the stairs, but…

Oh, one more thing, that car accident, it was in J.D.’s VW Bug. Yeah, that’s what hit records will get you, it’s all artifice, J.D. was still driving the People’s Car.

But the denouement… She’d gotten into the Big Top, she’d reached for the brass ring, but she’d fallen. She was known to many, after all you saw her records in the store, she got reviews, but she was nowhere broke on Morrison St. in Hollywood when she died. People thought about her, but they were caught up in their own lives. That’s how it is, if you can’t save yourself…

And Sill had saved herself so many times.

Now you’ll see modern acts testifying about Sill’s songs. Is she the new Nick Drake? Well, the internet allows her to survive. She’s got some notice, her music is out there, available.

But I’m not expecting even the level of acclaim and acceptance of Eva Cassidy. Then again, Judee Sill was a writer, not an interpreter.

But she was a person.

There’s hogwash saying she wasn’t successful because of her looks. Well, I’m a red-blooded American male and she looks good to me! But in truth it didn’t matter what you looked like, it all came down to the music, did it get a chance and was it accepted by the public. Sill got a chance, but somehow her music didn’t resonate with the audience. Doesn’t mean it’s bad, but when you come close it’s so disheartening.

Today everybody wants to become a brand. Everybody is selling 24/7, dunning you to pay attention, and most of the stuff isn’t worth paying attention to.

And you can bitch about the gatekeepers of yore, but if you had one of the five thousand albums released each year, you were a cut above. The internet proved that that were not a ton of unsigned acts who just needed exposure to prove their greatness. The labels did a good job of finding talent. And if you were on a heralded label, like Asylum, believe me, people paid attention.

It was a different era. We were not all connected. What happened in your burg, never mind your life, was unknown by most. You foraged, you plotted, you made mistakes… Maybe you went to college, maybe you didn’t, but there was a level of equality, we were all in it together. In other words, Judee Sill was one of us. Then again, she was not. She was an artist. Not an influencer. Not in it solely for the fame or even the remuneration. Being a great songwriter was paramount. Forget writing with a dozen others, Judee Sill had a statement to make, a personal statement.

And most people shrugged, if they were aware of her or her music at all.

Now this film is getting a limited theatrical release in April. But these projects are always about streaming TV. I’m thinking if this is available on Netflix word of mouth will spread. Because Judee Sill was not like everybody else. She had an inner strength, a desire. But it just did not pan out and that was too much to take.

Keep this film in mind, at some point you’ll come across it and be able to click. You should. Because, like me, you’ll be creeped out. Judee didn’t die at 27, she lived all the way to 35, still too young to die, but she saw a good amount, she knew what was going on.

This is not “Behind the Music” where the arc transcends the act. One thing is for sure, Judee Sill was an original. And this is iconic in an era of me-too, or individuals desiring attention who do not deserve it.

This is Judee Sill’s story. Not yours. There are some connections, some similarities, but she was different, unique, and it is this kind of person who scales the heights, becomes a successful artist, because they need it, they’ve got something to prove, and they don’t fit into regular society, this is the only thing they can do and they’re all in.

Makes you think, makes you sad.

It’s life and life only.

I’m on Universal’s side on this. TikTok should pay rightsholders more.

But we’ve seen this movie before. As documented in the book “Hit Men,” CBS Records wanted to eliminate the underworld of independent radio promotion. Therefore, it refused to pay. End result, the radio stations played music by acts on the other five major labels and eventually CBS caved and started paying the indie promo fees once again.

Of course now there are only three major label groups. And the facts are not an exact fit. But TikTok is the new radio, even worse, that’s not only where records blow up, but where the labels find their new acts.

And the labels only have themselves to blame. Ever since the near monopoly of MTV the labels have been pissed that they had little control over what was played and were left out of the financial action. Their goal ever since has been to establish competitors, so they could play one off the other.

This is not the case with TikTok. The me-too product Instagram Reels has some traction, but it’s a sideline venture compared to TikTok, which skews younger, where the creators have time to make the videos and the early adopters surf and get addicted to songs. And today’s youngsters watch TikTok much more than they used to listen to the radio.

So TikTok has power.

And then there’s the recent Spotify announcement that $4.5 billion of their royalty payouts, half of what they paid in total, went to indies. Now the devil is in the details here, because a lot of these indies are actually distributed by major labels. But, the indie part of the pie is growing. And the need for major distribution is falling. You can go nearly direct to DSPs and get almost all of the money. The advantages of major distribution keep eroding, this is not the physical retail of yore.

In other words, TikTok can survive without Universal’s recordings and publishing assets. It will be hobbled, but not put out of business. This is not like Spotify losing Universal’s music, as a matter of fact, Spotify refused to launch in America, its launch was delayed in America, until all major label groups signed on. Funny how feet were dragged and then Spotify and streaming saved the labels’ bottom lines. If you’re looking for foresight, don’t look to record labels.

So what will happen here, and what has been happening is…

Nature abhors a vacuum. So users are adjusting, and employing music from the other two major label groups and independents. And those signed to Universal are pissed. Just like they were at CBS thirty five years ago. You see removing content may be good for the label overall, but for the individual artist? It can be a serious impediment. Forget the royalties, they want the exposure, their career only involves them, Universal needs some act to hit, not necessarily theirs.

The loss of major label market share is the story of the streaming era. Hits are smaller, the total of indie streams and payouts keeps growing. Turns out not everybody wants the same music. And you can do quite well financially flying under the radar. One of the great things about TikTok is it’s free promotion. Independent artists are kept off terrestrial radio to this day, TikTok is a field day. Never mind the ability to expose your music elsewhere online, and to even make it cheaply on your computer.

It’s not like this evidence was hidden, anybody observing the sphere knew that the indie piece of the puzzle was growing. But the majors keep focusing on fewer and fewer acts, in most cases poached from TikTok. They are responsible for this mess.

Now in truth the majors will never die. Because of their catalogs. It’s not just about new music, but all the recordings of the past. And now, with Universal Publishing involved, even more recordings of the past. Believe me, that’s why TikTok will eventually settle. It’s hard to do business in the music world without the assets of Universal, or Sony or Warner. But the number? Once again, sans music Spotify is out of business, but not TikTok.

So what we’ve got here is a mess. A backward looking Universal throwing its weight around based on history and a bunch of newbies creating out of thin air to put their music on TikTok, a site that didn’t even exist when the major labels froze their hit paradigm back in the last century. Furthermore, not all material on TikTok is based on music. TikTok could survive quite well without music!

So the majors are slowly losing control. It equates with the film business. Remember when the heads of studios were household names? Not anymore. Other than the hated Zaslav, most people don’t know those in control of old school entertainment powerhouses. But Reed Hastings? Everybody knows him, he disrupted the landscape with Netflix. He’s not holding on to the past, he’s jetting into the future. HBO might dribble out product week to week, but Netflix which drops it all at once is winning the war, hell, Zaslav is now licensing to Netflix once again!

Will we have a similar situation in music?

Well, the landscape is not the same, but… If you want to have a gigantic worldwide hit you really need the major, it can grease the skids in exposure, i.e. radio, press, television… Then again, terrestrial radio, traditional press and network/late night/cable TV now have dwindling returns. The public is in charge online, and all oldsters can do is pooh-pooh this. Never forget, the internet is high school on steroids. And you remember how fast information spread in high school.

Now TikTok and Universal will settle. But pull back the lens, look at the big picture. The majors continue to lose market share and influence. It’s a long evolution, but…

And the real money is on the road, so entrepreneurs are not focused on recordings.

But when you look at the music world at large… Hell, a lot of acts grossing a ton of dough live are not signed to majors, no way.

And when it comes to creation, when it comes to content, expect this trend to grow. Believe me, hits are nothing compared with the aggregate. That’s the essence of TikTok, of all social media, they cover all the niches, they’re quite broad.

Universal used to cover all the niches in the old days. But instead of putting out the red carpet, it’s pulling up the drawbridge, it wants low-streaming indies not to be paid. And most of these indies are not making beaucoup bucks, but in the aggregate it’s a serious number.

They thought Ukraine couldn’t stand up to Mother Russia. But it turns out hearts and minds are powerful. Didn’t we learn that in Vietnam? That America couldn’t triumph over guerilla warfare?

Then again, the three majors are all publicly traded companies, everybody’s on salary, no one’s an owner, so there’s short term thinking involved. It’s outsiders, with a personal investment, who disrupt the landscape. Isn’t that the story of the past twenty five years?

Don’t expect the major labels to be concerned with this, to even know this, to even care about this… Because they want their money now, so the execs can get their bonuses!

I started a new book and it set my mind adrift.

Actually, I finished one about Nazis, brief but overrated. But it’s funny how my generation has a fascination with Nazis. I don’t think younger people do. World War II was close by in our rearview mirror growing up. We couldn’t quite understand how it happened. Then again, this was when America was a clear number one. Isn’t it funny that all the progress is initiated by the EU these days? The USB-C connection on your new iPhone…credit the EU, trying to reduce waste, never mind enable convenience. When it comes to stopping bad corporate behavior, it’s the EU that takes the lead, the EU that is supporting Ukraine, as America slowly loses its perch as the keeper of the world’s peace. It’s like the country is Freddie Prinze, and I’m not talking about Junior. Remember, “Eez not my job!” Actually, it seems not to be America’s job to do so much these days, not only outside the country but inside. You’re on your own, it’s not my responsibility. Actually, there’s a great story in today’s “Wall Street Journal”:

“Money floods into shares based on memes, is shifted around by algorithms based on past patterns, or goes into vast passive index trackers sold on the basis of being virtually free. None have an incentive to devote resources to keeping the corporate bureaucracy in check, since day traders and hedge funds will be gone before the next CEO meeting, while passive funds can’t sell even if the CEO is thrown in prison.”

“Why We Risk a Cartoon Version of Capitalism – Private-sector investors are so ineffective at overseeing companies that state-run funds feel the need to step in”: https://shorturl.at/TWZ27 (That’s a free link.)

I’d like to tell you there are stories this interesting in music, but despite being the canary in the coal mine for digital disruption in the aughts, music is now adrift. Now it’s all AI and politics, with a mix of business stories thrown in.

Anyway, I’m addicted to the news. And not the analysis from biased sites on the right and left, but the derided mainstream news, which is flawed but far superior to the outlets cited by the cranks who can’t accept that we all live in society together and if you don’t come together… Well, you risk the end of democracy. Never forget, fascists promise the trains will run on time, that there will be order, and then you wake up one day and you realize you’re the one who has sacrificed.

But I don’t read much nonfiction. Because at best it’s informational, it doesn’t set your mind free like fiction.

Write what you know is an aphorism we hear constantly. And the truth is this is what most people do, which is why we have so many books set in college, college towns, because the writers have gotten their graduate degrees there. And in this book, three girls (we can call college students girls, can’t we?) are being interviewed about marriage, which then devolves into a conversation about money, and along the way we find out why they’re all ensconced in the same dorm building.

And this reminded me of going to college. You remember, being thrown in with a bunch of kids you’d never met before. Your family and friends from back home irrelevant. And it was just your personality, trappings were irrelevant. And everybody had the same status, everybody earned their right to be there, you were forced to interact, to make friends, to find your own people.

Same deal at summer camp.

But that does not happen when you’re an adult. Sure, you can go to a conference and you might not know anybody, but there are already cliques, and status is important and evident.

You can go to work in a new office but there’s a definite hierarchy, and the others have experience, you’re the odd person out.

This experience of being thrown into a new situation, raw, with only your wits, I miss. Growing up there were resets on a regular basis. But then they stop. People move up the economic ladder, they gain assets, there’s a striation of society. Except maybe when you go into the old folks home, after they strip you of your possessions and everybody is similar, then again they’re all not healthy, they all don’t have their wits about them, and family visits. Your family didn’t come rescue you at college, not even kindergarten or high school. You were on your own. And it was anxiety-provoking and thrilling. An adventure.

Now maybe if you’ve lived in the same town all your life you’re not quite sure what I’m talking about. Maybe this is another case of the hoi polloi versus the elite. Maybe it’s another way the elite are advantaged, by being forced into these new situations and gaining life skills. Maybe this is a way private college students are advantaged, at state schools you probably already know people and so many go home on the weekends. At a private college, an elite college, you’re stuck there with all new people.

Then again, today you’ve got your parents on speed dial. You may meet new people, but the old ones haunt you forever. You never lose touch with anyone. You can look them up online. If they’re not on Facebook, they’re on LinkedIn. The past haunts you in a way it did not in the pre-internet era. Then again, statistically fewer people move these days, it’s too expensive, but when the boomers grew up you picked up and plopped down in a new town on a regular basis. And you got in your car and went exploring, maybe drove cross-country. Our experience was visceral and real as opposed to virtual. Not that I want to put down the virtual world, the internet, in many ways it saved my life.

But that experience of entering new worlds raw, that’s gone. And if you boasted that you owned this or that, or had been here or there, you were an object of ridicule in college. Who you were was what it was all about. Be a joker, be a good conversationalist, be someone who can be trusted…that was what was valued. We were all sifting these new societies for friends. Even stranger, who we started out being friends with oftentimes was not who we ended up  being friends with.

But get older and everybody clings to their résumé. They don’t want to let us forget their job, their house, their cars, their trips… Hell, social media is mostly about bragging.

But we’re all just people underneath. We can relate to most everybody in truth, despite the polarization in society.

Furthermore, it’s a personal responsibility to keep growing, to push the envelope, and too many are tired, just playing out their years. And you don’t need money to have these new experiences, you can go volunteer in your own damn neighborhood. But that would mean you’ve got to meet new people, feel uncomfortable, question your suppositions.

Talk to anybody who’s got children. They go to college and they come home different. They shed the indoctrination of their parents, they have their own ideas. They call this growing up.

But too many people stop growing.