Note: We all love the club experience, just like we loved Main Street and bookstores, the question is whether they’re economically viable, and if not, whether the government and more successful acts in larger venues should support them. Also, I want to draw a line between clubs that feature live bands and those that feature deejays. Video killed the radio star and deejays killed the guitar hero, there will always be a future in clubs with a deejay, who play already recorded music, in many cases, already commercially successful

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You said it best.

In my words:

Way back when, the only way to see undeveloped/developing acts were at clubs.  Today, we have YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Reels, etc.  We can sit on our couch and watch.  Is it a better experience? I dont know.  But for now, the consumer has voted. They aren’t going to the club and therefore, those clubs need to rethink their experience.

Darren Herman

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you are totally right on this. i had been booking clubs and my own shows for years…but by 2013 the shift was happening. i saw it coming and got out in 2015.

Yes i miss it. Yes i miss the bands! Yes i miss helping bands get to where they needed to go. it was always starting with opening and then moving your way up. once you could be in front of the headliner people would hear you and decide on their own.

it was always a natural progression. bands start at clubs then go to the palace then the palladium then off they go. pretty much goldenvoice would take over from there!

i could go on and on but what’s the point? things change and you go with it or you don’t. i chose to get out while i was on top.

thanks

Dayle Gloria

Scream
Club With No Name
The Viper Room

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Totally spot on! I used to love going to a club show in hopes of discovering my new favorite band. That’s not the case today. I can always check out the music beforehand somewhere on the internet. I only see live music that I’ve already heard before. The only time this isn’t the case is when I catch the tail end of an opener. But that’s becoming rarer. I will often times look up the opener on the internet before a show to see if it’s worth my while.  I just don’t see music anymore they I haven’t already heard digitally. I can even look up the setlist to see if I dig the set their playing. The way people experience live music has changed and the industry needs to adjust to that change. They will mean some awesome places have to shut down. I’m sorry for that but the solution is not to try and hold back natural change. We’ve got to accept the way it is.

John N. Hamilton

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I don’t know much about the UK club scene but clubs closing in the US is not necessarily about lack of attendance. It’s almost always about ownership / management taking their eyes off the ball.

Usually one or a combo of a few things:

– LYV or AEG (or a more sophisticated sharper business person) opens a club down the street and makes it extremely difficult to compete on artist guarantees so the club winds up with scraps and is unable to adjust.

– Landlord won’t renew a below market lease

– Can’t find a decent talent buyer / in house promoter – apparently what we do is rocket science

– Lack of sophistication / inability to adjust to or recognize newer business models (like digital marketing)

– Cruising on a great location and not putting enough effort into marketing / promo

– Burnt out owner or control freak refuses to loosen grip but no longer can keep up

– Ownership runs it like a personal keg party and doesn’t pay much attention to the actual business of being in business. This usually is hand in hand with cruising on a great location.

– Owner / buyer only likes one or two genres whose fanbases can’t sustain or are aging out (ex – all punk rock / all metal / all jambands) and the product goes stale.

Aside from the LYV / AEG situation and landlords wanting their vig, both sadly facts of life, the others are where the bargains are!

Dan Millen

(Note: By today’s standard, the Wiltern, a 2,300 seat venue, is considered by the business to be a club. I’m referring to venues with a max capacity of 500. Really, 400 or less.)

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No question that you’re right: clubs, especially the dreaded “pay-to-play” clubs, are doomed. But…

There is one kind of club that should stay open – places like the Write-Off Room and the Baked Potato here in LA. I’m sure you’re very familiar with these two clubs. Both are owned and run by musicians and each is a place for musicians who are not looking for record deals but just want to play in front of people for the love of it.

Session players, older musicians, road musicians in between gigs, all can play and personally I love to go check it out every once in a while. Billy Vera and the Beaters are coming this Saturday to the Write-Off and at the Baked Potato, the under-appreciated Sara Niemietz will be there Thursday and Luis Conte on Friday.

I for one love to go and hear great music played by great players who aren’t looking to climb the pop ladder.

Best,
John Boylan

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Bob, It’s not about “starting in clubs”, it’s as much about having places to actually ‘go and show’ after starting “online”; it’s about keeping club-level venues going as feeders to the bigger, established venues; and – scratch my eyes out – to re-energize people going out for actual live, physical music experiences that is anything other than big acts in big venues. There’s a whole bigger music industry that may never get near a chart (whatever the f*ck that means today), or even get to play in arenas. Deer Tick springs to mind, as a local N.E. example (so far!) Or old school farts (like us) who draw solidly but not constantly enough to fill 2,500+ venues.

You haven’t spent a lot of time in the past 20 years in clubs in the hinterlands (i.e outside the major cities) or in the UK. They are there – almost everywhere, and a lot of them struggling to keep the doors open, and that’s not just because people aren’t going. The commercail real estate market is a bastard. Sure – it’s a harsh road, but let’s not make it “highways or nothing”, FFS.

But, if Drumpf gets in…most entertainment that isn’t Kid Schlock or similar will eventually be banned, anyway. The barbarians are already through the damn gate.

Best,

Hugo Burnham

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Why must there be one or the other?

The internet and social media are a great tool for bands, comedians and other performers and for clubs to use to grow awareness for an artist. It used to be a Tower or Best Buy listening post or an end cap at Borders. This is so much more efficient.

The end of clubs is GREED and the related value of real estate. And short sightedness.

Our business (live entertainment) drives traffic to almost every other business. And… we give a city a soul and identity, which makes the places around it fertile for growth of apartments, hotels and businesses who want to house their offices there because they want to be able to compete for workers because they are in a cool place.

Gary Witt

The Pabst Theater Group | Milwaukee 

(414) 242-8253

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“in 2023, returned an entire gross profit across all 830 such venues in the UK of just £2.9 million. 43% of Grassroots Music Venues in the UK made a loss in 2023.“

“Budget Statement from Music Venue Trust”: https://t.ly/jjYVd

Those numbers are insane!? 830 venues only 57% are profitable and those that are averaging £6100 a year?!? No wonder they are all shutting down! Are these coffee shops that double as “stages”?

Working at a well known computer store on Black Friday, we would clear $1M selling the latest tech, in a single day!!

We can a discuss the cultural need for spaces like these, but wow! Pass the hat is not a business plan!

-Andrew Meadors

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A fair and solid position. I wouldn’t consider a forced tax from large venues or big acts to subsidize the little ventures, either. And the extension of our modern culture, called the internet, still lacks authentic roots.

Meanwhile, growth and awareness for live music continue to intrigue a young audience. Why? Because digital is cold and stale? Do generic record industry products sound the same? Is it lifeless because another pop singer is overproduced and sings “multiple impassionate writers” music? Who knows…

But, in honor of “the redlight district,” letting the clubs close or die is akin to stomping on the soil of culture. Authentic culture and the arts are only inspired by the soil and activities of the region, and deep down, you know that is true.

Nick Sample

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Obviously…you’ve never owned a physical venue offering true hospitality amidst a shared
experience with like-minded humans…if you had…you would truly appreciate the never ending need for “small” entertainment venues.
Stay home, go to your big backstage and feel special.  Your choice.

We’ll be out here discovering something truly  special, live and in person.

Mitchell Fox

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Spot on. Nobody gives a sh*t anymore about the unknown, unsigned act. Either you’re a legacy act, a new artist who went viral off TikTok or you’re a cover band getting paid to entertain built in crowds. I’ll be honest, “creating content” feels like a fool’s errand when it’s mostly just shouting into the abyss. And begging family and friends to come see you at the local bar isn’t very fun either. Clubs are the places where people discover bands. You’ll never get that experience on your phone. It was like those stupid chat apps we all tried during the lockdown. They were fun and novelty for 2 weeks then lost the appeal. We need to be there. So go ahead and close the clubs at your own risk.

Just Danny Jay

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‘…today’s generation doesn’t want to go to clubs to listen to the music…’ they want to go and socialize with the performance as background sound(track) to their lives. I was tempted to leave a club this past summer as the volume level of conversation, having dipped down when the group took the stage for its second set, then rose higher than it was during the break.
More’s the pity small venues are closing–post-lockdown economics are daunting at best–but if the audiences don’t want to pay attention to ‘unsigned/developing acts’, what’s a struggling operation to do (or a fledgling artist for that matter)…

Doug Collette

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Hey Bob, I Lived in a small Hudson river city where the small, mom-and-pop stores were ripping off the residents big time, making money hand over fist till Home Depot opened couple miles away! Best thing ever happened to that whole area

Schuyler Bishop

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So rock is dead and the clubs are dead? Which is the chicken and which is the egg? If new music starts on the internet I suspect that is because there are not enough performance opportunities for young artists to develop and be heard. Music clubs are not essential for creating every type of music but they are if you want great rock music. And yes, there are exceptions but they are exactly that, exceptions. I don’t want to go back either but I do want there to be great rock artists ahead.  

Steve Ward

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Today, at 74, I am blessed to have made a “Living” playing music. Performing Full-time in nightclubs, lounges, hotel circuits, Disney gigs, Playboy Clubs, etc. Starting in 1971, Like most “career musicians” I decided my retirement would be my choice and I would probably never pick a date as I love what I do.

The COVID-19 era in 2019 was the beginning of the end, followed by the Inflation of America’s economy, we saw budgets cut and doors closing all around us. Stages that would accommodate 7-piece bands now “swallow” a guitar player on a stool.

Your observations are Spot On, Bob. I suppose I could cut our budget and keep on keeping on, but financial realities override Performance Ego.

Thank you for your knowledge and insight on all things entertainment. 

Carry on and stay in tune…..

Blessings, Paul Ferguson

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Folks moving on to non production jobs due to Covid really hurt the talent pool. The lack of club gigs as a production training ground increases the challenge. You can’t have safe arena shows without talented experienced production staffing

Best Regards,

Steve Gietka

SMG Entertainment LLC

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I never considered the idea of letting clubs go away as you suggest, but you’ve touched a truth here.

I cut my teeth playing in clubs. It was what we did, and we grew from it, but even then it was a hard, grinding slog. My ears still ring from it. I still play occasional club shows, but only because I can sell out a small room and I enjoy it. It’s certainly not going to build my career. And I rarely go out to what we used to call the church of rock n roll, seeking that ephemeral buzz of discovering a great new live band (World Party at Cabaret Metro in Chicago, as an example). I saw Aimee Mann in a small club last week and it was… fine. She sounded great and had a tight band, but was it worth the work of going out?

And to be a young artist (like my daughter Fiona Grey) it won’t even give the little it gave us. I could at least pay the rent playing live original music in clubs. They haven’t had that spirit here for quite a while.

Provocative piece. Thanks for all you do.

Ralph Covert

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Kids don’t develop live chops playing to Tik Tock. Ultimately will affect the big shows when people get fed up paying big bucks to see mediocre performers.

Kelly Breaks

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‘So, let’s say I even want to go out to a club. Do I really want to hear some unsigned band playing original material, drowning out my conversation? ABSOLUTELY NOT!”

An unsigned band playing original material in a club is the essence of everything you have written about for years.

Cavern Club anybody?

Clubs can fail for a number of reasons, most likely it’s the rent. The social aspect of a live music experience in a small sweaty club is one of the building blocks of the music business yesterday and today. Lose them and you will see a void in the infrastructure of music. Doormen, ticket takers, bartenders, roadies, sound techs, and groupies are all part of the show, not to be found on the internet.
A tax on larger venues to support smaller ones is enlightened self interest. Only a pig wouldn’t see that.

Patrick Lyons
Veteran FORMER club operator

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In many ways, Starbucks’ struggles with customer dissatisfaction reflect a broader trend across industries where consumers are increasingly drawn to unique, smaller establishments rather than large chains. For coffee lovers, the appeal of independent coffee shops lies not only in a desire for high-quality, artisanal brews but also in the experience that comes with visiting a local, intimate venue. These coffee shops often prioritize craftsmanship and community over transactional efficiency, providing a more personalized and curated atmosphere that contrasts with the often impersonal feel of a big chain.

Similarly, while the music industry has shifted largely to an online model, many people still crave physical spaces that foster genuine connection and creativity. Just as some prefer independent coffee shops over Starbucks, there’s a similar allure in live, local music venues where intimacy, artistry, and a sense of belonging take precedence over scale and commercialization. In the case of coffee, it’s less about “bougie” preferences or political affiliations and more about a desire for authentic, grounded experiences in a fast-paced, digital world. These independent coffee shops and smaller venues offer something chains can’t: a space where local culture and personal connection flourish, making them an alternative to the corporate ubiquity of brands like Starbucks and Live Nation.

Jeremiah Younossi

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I get what you’re saying but I can’t get behind the idea of letting clubs close even if I’m not convinced the tax on larger gigs is the right approached.

I have worked with too many people who do a good job running venues in Wales and not only do they build their business ethos on original music, but wider arts and focusing on being a place that ultimately serves the community. And that’s a good alternative for the times that any of us have had a bit too much of browsing online.

I do genuinely believe these places can be well run, and allow people to build their acts and get bodies in. Not all of them sure, but not every act is going to be in the scarcity game and sky rocket from internet to securing a high profile support acts.

There needs to be a decent range of venues for live music to be presented and the opportunity for any great quality act to shine through and raise their profile.

Rayan Elliott

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Thanks Bob,so true.But a few clubs have started having Happy Hour shows for us oldsters.Dinner and drink specials,and to see a live band play before 9:45 pm brings in people.Thanks Bob,stay well,Ted Keane

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I think you’re missing the larger point…the socialization.
You can have your beer delivered and listen to your music on line…it’s very efficient …but it isn’t the same as going to the pub…or the club.
Yes, the world and the business world has changed but not always for the better.
Efficiency vs humanity, pick one? Is that where we are? May be.
But it isn’t better…it isn’t even good.

Alan Crane

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Bob, you may be right about the economics but not the heart of music for me. I have seen many famous and not so famous acts in small venues.

 

I don’t want to watch artists on a jumbotron with 30,000 of my closest friends. I’d rather experience the vibe and connection on stage.

 

–albhy galuten

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What you call socialization online is de- socialization, which is why half the people in this country are emotionally and spiritually dysfunctional and can be turned into an angry mindless cult. It’s also why you are making an ersatz living lobbing pecadillos into the ethersphere. Get a life Bob. Go to a club. Have a beer. Look a girl in the eye. Listen to a musician that has the guts to do it live

John Gunn

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Kind of like the only folks hyped about major labels are the ones still cashing a major-label paycheck—and that club’s getting smaller by the day. Truth is, the only ones clinging to these fading relics—music videos, radio, the rest—are the last few who still pull a paycheck from them. Time changes everything and time is up.

You get the picture. The credits are rolling, and the audience has already left.

Sal Salami

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You miss the point .

The clubs keep the industry going. They give a place for artists to learn their craft (song writing and preforming) on the way up and a survival income for those on the way down.

Think comedy clubs, the incubator for all the new comedy talent.

Some people even like the club experience for both.

Ron Stone

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Interesting take, Bob, but let’s unpack idea that clubs are obsolete. That take that might sound logical at first blush, but the notion that clubs are relics, outpaced by the digital age and streaming algorithms, never dips beneath surface-level analysis. Clubs aren’t nostalgia factories; they’re the engine room of musical culture. They’re where the weird and wonderful ideas are tested in real-time, where bands play until their fingers are raw, and where audiences still get to feel something unfiltered. Let’s be real: nobody who wants to have a leisurely chat with friends goes to a club featuring live music. That’s not their purpose, never has been. Live music clubs are for people who want to feel music, the kind of people who let sound wash over them until it’s a full-body experience. It’s not background noise; it’s the main event. The notion that a club should cater to casual conversation misunderstands the whole point. A live music venue is a temple to decibels and discovery, not a lounge where you sip cocktails and talk about your week. If that’s what somebody’s after, there’s a bar down the street for that.

Sure, Sam Smith can go from streaming sensation to sold-out arena overnight. But that’s an outlier, not a blueprint. The real music ecosystem still starts with that low stage, that sticky floor, that hum of anticipation when a band you’ve never heard of plugs in. As someone who has covered live music for thirty years, I assure you that this is anything but a toothless, romantic ideal. I’ve seen our local metal club packed to the gills on a Tuesday night to catch sets from obscure European death metal bands passing through town. And if that’s not niche enough, know that the club is normally at capacity at or before the first support band. This is happening everywhere! There’s still an undeniable hunger for live music in all its forms, and it’s not the arenas with their spectacle and LED overload that satisfy it—it’s the clubs. Those cramped, dimly lit rooms are where that thirst gets quenched, where the raw, unfiltered essence of live performance still thrives.

Supporting these venues isn’t clinging to the past; it’s safeguarding the future. Let them close, and all we’ll have left is music that’s algorithm-approved and frictionless—a world where the lifeblood of music is sapped dry.

Best regards,

Joe Daly
Freelance Contributor
Metal Hammer, Classic Rock, Men’s Health, Bass Player et al.

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I like your posts, you share a lot of interesting views on a multiple of issues.

When it comes to clubs I’ve always held the view that watching a band play live in a club is more often than not a much better experience.

Better than listening to music on the radio or cds or even vinyl. Music was meant to be heard/experienced live.

As for the arena and stadium shows most people are watching gigantic flat screens. The performers look like tiny toy soldiers to most of the audience. There is a great vibe from being with a large crowd displaying their appreciation for the same band. But seeing the Stones at the El Mocambo (Toronto, Chinatown) in the mid seventies was a hell of a more enjoyable experience than seeing them at the Scotiabank Arena.

Bars are closing because it’s no longer a joke to drink and drive like back in the day when Johnny Carson bragged about being stopped once again in his monologues.

Getting home safely was a badge of honour.

My experience with putting on shows in bars is limited to 140 shows in 11 years in Vancouver area. I’ve seen the change as laws became stricter and more screening resulted in ever increasing convictions.

Not only did the audience begin to dwindle but those who came drank very little and bar owners countered with raising prices for food and drink.

As George wrote, All Things Must Pass.

Rodney Dranfield

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Never thought of it this way, and boy is this sobering and sad to old rock & rollers like myself.  However I feel a bit differently, because it was rarely/never the untested, unheard of bands that I went to see in small clubs.  They were the SUPPORT acts for the cool bands on the way up that had often times just been signed, or were about to be.  I forget who opened and it doesn’t matter, but this paradigm is what allowed me to watch Ian Hunter with Mick Ronson(!!) from 10 feet away in Huntington Beach.  Or Van Halen at the old KROQ Cavern Club (is that what they called it?) in Hollywood, literally when the first record was being released.  We all have those stories (Patti Smith at the Golden Bear!), and none of those bands were big enough (yet) to play the big rooms.  Aw well, I’ll cuddle up with my memories, and be glad that I was part of the “live music generation”!

Young Hutchinson

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With reference to “Let the clubs close”…. Lets NOT.

I read with interest your commentary and whilst I think you have some valid points you’re also missing something that is important. From your prospective clubs don’t really offer anything exciting anymore and you’re not far wrong but you are wrong because it really depends on the club.

You cant tell me the clubs in Las Vegas are closing, they are not. They are paying David Guetta over a million dollars a show to play there… in a club…. !!!!!!! and the clubs are packed and people pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a table and drink the night away surrounded by other people paying tens of thousands of dollars to see DJ’s like David Guetta play.

So it all comes down (in my opinion) to the offering. If you have a sh*tty club with sh*tty sound and sh*tty DJ’s and sh*tty bathrooms with sh*tty floors and staff with sh*tty attitudes then yes, I agree people have had enough of that and they are leaving those clubs like rats off a sinking ship.

As an ex pat Englishman who has lived in the states for 25 years and has been in the music business all my life I can tell you that you just cannot get away with sh*tty anymore. Young people still want to go out and still do. Sound Nightclub in Los Angeles has firmly established itself as one of the longest running nightclubs catering to underground dance music and has operated for well over 10 years. It’s still rammed! So why when all these clubs are closing is Sound working? Well it’s simple. It’s the offering. It’s treating people who pay their admission fee like human beings and giving them an experience they can value.

Now, there is another part to this puzzle and that is the talent/music etc. We’re in an age where Dj’s / Producers need to prove value. Gone is the day of the DJ booth in the corner and the people dancing without a thought or care to who is playing. Now it’s about the act having their hands in the air with the crowd reacting to them. You cant really connect like that with your audience at a festival so the club becomes the under play or the Petri dish but either way you’re programming what people actually want and if you get it right, like they say, build and they will come. The talent love it when they can see people faces, the can see the reaction to the latest tune that the literally made on their laptop on the way to the gig….Its their chance to try things out, to express themselves, to take chances. They don’t get that at festivals. We don’t need live club music to turn into Spotify where its a numbers game…..

With the cool off on festivals and the desire for people to have an elevated experience and not have to hold their nose and close their eyes to relive themselves in a sh*tty porta potty, or have to listen to 60-80% of the line up they did not come to see, its clubs and interesting bespoke venues that are leading the way and whilst English clubbing my be in the “toilet” I am here to tell you that Los Angeles it is not and I do not see it being so anytime soon. BUT, you have to work it, you have to work hard to get everyone across the door, to convince the talent they should play, to make sure that the absolute maximum amount of folks walk out happy, that they don’t feel like they have been bent over with a heavy door/ticket charge with a massive ticketing fee, that the drinks are good, that the bar tender was nice to you and thanked you, that the door staff are friendly, the the sound was excellent and the lights were fantastic. Cos if you don’t, they ain’t coming back.

Long live nightclubs:)

Keep up the good work Bob.

Dave Ralph – Framework

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As a long -term artist manager here in the UK and former chairman of the MMF UK, I can assure you the vast majority of managers here would disagree with you… Not only the managers, but the agents, festivals and the Big Acts who would actually Happily contribute £1 /$1 a ticket to the cause….. many many promoters too..

 

If artists are not able to develop their live careers through a ‘ladder process’, ie small clubs – larger venues – festivals, then on to larger venues and festival main stages and eventually arenas and stadiums…. Where the hell are the Coldplays, Arctice Monkeys, Oasis’s of the future going to hone their craft and build an audience ?

 

Clubs are NOT just about rock music… they support music from All genres, Jazz, Grime, HipHop, Folk… you name it…. For a healthy and diverse range of music, those dedicated venues are essential…. Not only for the local music markets in each city, but for local communities too…

 

Unless you happen to want an endless sequence of solo pop artists to dominate the future music landscape FOREVER… then small venues are ESSENTIAL to the music eco-system For The Future.

 

Kids DO want to go to see bands play in clubs… I still go to packed shows in small clubs several times a week…. however, those clubs / pubs are making very little money and are becoming fewer and fewer … Why ? because the business rates (local city taxes), health and safety and security costs are sucking ALL the money up and making it not only unprofitable but loss making.

 

“Boo hoo, Tough Sh*t, that’s progress” you say… “kids can get all they want from ‘screens’”  But imagine a world without these places ?? where kids stay at home and look at their screens without ever going out with their pals and experiencing Real Live Music and…. Real Life…. What a poorer, sadder miserable world it will be….

 

“The chance of building it from your local club, bigger and bigger into stardom, have never been lower”…. Yes because the places they can play are fewer and fewer…. Venues closing because of those rising costs left right and centre  and don’t give me that “oh they should just double the ticket prices” argument, please!

 

Yes music lovers can go to One Big Show a year at the kind of ticket prices you seem to think are “realistic” but how is that satisfying anyone but the Artist and Promoter of that show ?

 

You say; “Do I really want to hear some unsigned band playing original material, drowning out my conversation? ABSOLUTELY NOT!”   Dude…. Why are you going to a club to have a conversation ?? You are there to there to see a musician deliver their ‘best shot’ for YOU….

 

There is literally Nothing as good as seeing an amazing band in a tiny venue and then years later to be able to say “I Was There”…

 

No…. the loss of these venues will be to the cultural detriment of society as a whole and to the detriment of the lives of our children.

 

Those who are trying to change that should be commended !

 

Stephen Budd

Record-producers.com

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I believe strongly in the wisdom of the market to determine what sort of art is viable and “good.” 

If the product isn’t good enough, or there’s a better product available elsewhere, people will migrate to new venues and activities.

Here’s my take, admittedly idiosyncratic and personal, on the evolution of music clubs for my generation (I’m 60) and immediate followers, from the pre-punk era through the mid-80s and beyond. During that period, the live music scene in most big cities evolved from highly-skilled cover bands playing at popular venues to decent crowds who wanted to drink and dance to good music to, post-punk, a lot of mostly crappy to mediocre indie/original bands playing in smaller, funkier venues to their friends who were also in bands, with everyone there mostly in it for the hang/lifestyle, not the quality of the music. Certainly, no one was dancing. 

Trust me, in Seattle, the average night with 3-4 bands on the bill at the Vogue in the 80s or the Crocodile in the 90s decidedly did not feature 3-4 Nirvanas, Pearl Jams, Soundgardens. The gems were rare.

Side note: Of course, there were and are exceptions. E.g., live country music is always popular for drinkers and dancers and requires skilled players and singers. Austin, Nashville, some other cities have maintained a thriving working musician scene. But Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Boston, NY, DC…the 80s and 90s saw small rock clubs explode in popularity in these towns. 

So…for years, while catching a rising star at a dive club could be an ecstatic experience (and very infrequent), most of the music was not very good. But you went out anyway because going out and drinking a lot of cheap beer and hanging out with your friends and being part of the vibe and the scene was the most fun thing to do.

But not anymore. If you’re a young person living in one of those cities these days, you’re not pulling coffees and paying $300 for your monthly share of a house rental with your four bandmates and mostly interested in living a bohemian urban lifestyle. You probably work at Amazon or Google and make $150k+ a year, and you’d rather go to the climbing gym or stay at home on Twitch than go out with a bunch of people you don’t know (and never will know, because you’ll move to another city for a new job within 12-36 months) to hear music and watch performers that are mediocre at best, often just plain unskilled and crappy. Or if you do want to go to a music club, you go to a dance club featuring a DJ. Because you know the music will be good (if you like that sort of thing). 

The post-punk music club product that drew crowds in urban centers was never the music — the music was very rarely good enough to provide that draw. The product was the lifestyle, the scene, the vibe, the attraction of living on the margins and knowing things that other people didn’t know because they didn’t have the cojones to go to that part of town on a Saturday night. That’s all gone. We have the internet — everyone knows everything, instantly. No secret spots. No margins left in the big cities, cities that, culturally speaking, are victims of their own success, having priced out anyone and anything that could be considered marginal. 

So with the music never having been good enough on average and the vibe and scene having dissipated for multiple reasons…the market has moved on.

More importantly and optimistically, Bob, think snow! La Niña or bust!

best,

dave dederer

Talk about an unpopular opinion…

In case you haven’t been following this story, clubs are closing at an alarming rate in the U.K. Now they want tax relief, which is fine with me, that’s part of the game, but also a tax on other, larger gigs, has been proffered to keep the smaller venues in business, and I say HELL NO!

We hated to see Main Street go. But the truth was that Walmart was selling goods at a cheaper price and independent merchants could not compete. And now Walmart is challenged by Amazon. And even drugstores are closing. What, are we supposed to preserve the past?

The bottom line is today’s generation doesn’t want to go to clubs to listen to the music of unsigned/developing acts.

There, I said it.

The music business has completely flipped. Most acts gain their start online. Not to mention the fact that most of the name clubs in the U.S. were supported by the record companies, and after Napster came along they closed in droves.

We can have nostalgia for the past. But that does not mean we should legislate its continued existence.

Life has changed. The experience has changed. Used to be you had to leave the house for socialization, to meet people, to get laid. But that hasn’t been true for years. Now, you can meet people online, and it’s a much more efficient process. I can’t tell you how many clubs I went to alone…and came home alone (not every time, but most of the time!)

As for the music… Music is no longer a scarce commodity. It’s everywhere. If anything, we can complain that there’s too much music in the pipeline. It’s hard to find your way through the detritus. And the dirty little secret is that just because you make it that does not mean people will want to listen to it. If I declare myself an independent plumber am I entitled to work? And professions like medicine and law have licensing procedures. The major labels used to operate as equivalents. Either you were of a certain quality…or you kept your day job and gave up the dream.

I know, I know, the truth is harsh. But just because your parents and significant other think you’re great, that does not mean the public does, you are not entitled to be heard, nor are you entitled to make a living.

Now in the miasma of modernism the major labels are completely flummoxed and are signing ever fewer acts in ever fewer genres, leaving holes filled by independents. But before they cut back, there was this fiction that there were all these overlooked, unsigned bands that the internet would surface to our satisfaction. That turned out to be untrue.

So, let’s say I even want to go out to a club. Do I really want to hear some unsigned band playing original material, drowning out my conversation? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Are there acts with such a draw that you go to see them, to listen to them? Absolutely. But they are few and far between. Like I said above, that’s not how acts develop these days, they do so online. Of course there are genres like jam, that defy the paradigm, but today’s action starts with the recording, and then the live show.

Look at Sam Smith. He had a hit record and immediately played arenas. This was unheard of back in the day. You started in clubs, worked your way up to theatres and maybe arenas. But if you’re known, the demand is there.

And don’t confuse Chappell Roan with the club business. She made it by opening for a superstar, she was in front of all those eyeballs.

The chance of building it from your local club, bigger and bigger into stardom, have never been lower.

And this isn’t the kind of music people want anymore anyway.

Five guys, and it was almost always guys, gritty from the city, working it out on stage, playing rock music. No, it’s solo acts, oftentimes women, who are popular today. Maybe because they sing about their inner turmoil in a way the guys do not. That’s why Noah Kahan is so successful, he’s singing about his problems, but he’s not exactly playing rock music, the kind you used to hear in clubs.

Well, maybe a bit. But it’s not bombastic, Kahan’s music is not in your face. Convincing those who don’t care to pay attention in a club…is an incredibly heavy lift. Hell, people won’t even get to the arena to hear an opening act, almost always with stature, they’re going to show up at a club for even less? I don’t think so.

Spend all the money you want. Keep all the clubs open. Be my guest. But good luck getting people to show up. Even if you allow them in for free. People are bombarded with options, and they’ll overpay to see their heart’s desire, but for something they consider to be mediocre? No way.

So we could address the issue at its heart. How to get more types of music, that of developing acts, in front of the audience. That’s a worthy cause. But starting in burgs with clubs, that’s a fool’s errand.

Which is why so many clubs are closing.

And then there’s the concept of penalization. They want successful gigs to be taxed to keep the clubs open. So I’m successful and you’re going to penalize me? I’m sick and tired of ancient acts professing faux concern for the young acts of today. It’s a different world. And if you ask these acts whether they want to PAY to support the up and coming…good luck with that.

We’ve seen this myth employed over and over again. We had to save the aforementioned Main Street, we had to save the independent bookstore, all these efforts and none ever worked. Turned out people would rather sit at home and get a book delivered by Amazon. Takes a lot less time and effort and is usually cheaper, if for no other reason than Amazon doesn’t have all that overhead.

But you can browse in a bookstore, get advice from the owner!

Well, we don’t have a shortage of advice, and Amazon used to have editorial staff, but then it found that the algorithm was better at recommendation!

And while we’re at it, enough with bringing manufacturing back to the States. Hell, I even saw a Chappelle clip where he went on about this. Who wants to pay thousands for a flat screen TV? In a world where people will not even choose a seat on a plane just to save a handful of bucks. Most people fall into the lowest common denominator/cheapest bucket, to try to deny that is to put your head in the sand.

Let’s think forward, not back.

People are hungry for music, the new and the different. But today it rarely starts in clubs. For all the denigration of the internet, that’s where it starts, and then it goes to live, that’s the formula.

“Brothers”: https://t.ly/uhISi

This is not a typical rock autobiography. You know, we went there and did this. Tales of debauchery as we ride the road to success, delivering gossip along the way.

No, this is the story of an immigrant family…

That does not resemble my own an iota.

I’m the same age as Alex Van Halen. I grew up in the suburbs outside the metropolis too. But it was all about education and fulfillment, the ride to success. In retrospect, we were buying insurance, our parents didn’t want to have to worry about us when we grew up, they wanted us to have professions, steady incomes, a middle class life, they didn’t want to have us risk it all for a brass ring that very few can grasp.

Now the tonality of the book…

Someone pointed me to an Ariel Levy interview where Alex didn’t come across like this at all:

https://t.ly/6j6rT

He seemed somewhat warm.

But in this book, he comes across cold and direct and it’s almost an affectation, it’s hard to like this guy. It’s akin to his old bandmate Sammy Hagar’s book, in that it was written in Sammy’s voice. But is this really Alex’s voice? I’ve never met Alex, I knew Ed a little bit. But Ed was always the quiet, smiling one. Ed could be warm, but Ed could be suspicious. Then again, if you’ve made it to the top in rock and roll you’ve been screwed, and you’re worried about getting screwed again.

So what we’ve got is the Van Halen family taking a ship from the Netherlands to New York and ending up in Pasadena in an 800 square foot house whose bills were paid by…

Their father, a musician.

Not a star, a working musician.

And their Indonesian mother comes from the upper crust and insists they take piano lessons.

And their father takes them to gigs, has Alex playing drums when he’s barely hit double digits.

This is not the upbringing of the average American. Even the average successful American musician. This is not about seeing the Beatles, buying a guitar and having a dream… Music was in their blood.

And Eddie focused on playing the guitar.

If you’ve ever seen Ed’s guitar up close, you’re stunned not only that he built it, but that he ever took it on stage, it appears so fragile.

But Alex makes a good case for Eddie’s tinkering. They came from nothing, they had to make do with what they had, the concept of improving the mediocre so it could be great was in their DNA. This isn’t your typical teen getting a Stratocaster and being afraid to touch it.

What you get here is the Van Halen sensibility.

And a ton of musician philosophy.

One could argue that the star of the book is the Van Halens’ father. Who is constantly dropping wisdom. Reminded me of my own father, who wasn’t always engaged, but his drips of philosophy, they’ve stuck with me, I employ them to this day.

The Van Halens were taught that it was a show. First and foremost it had to be entertainment, you had to read the crowd, get people up and dancing. And Alex goes on about how it’s not the notes played, the actual music at a gig, but how the performance makes the audience feel. Which is damn true. Ever hear the audio of a gig you were at that you loved only to find the music was substandard?

So they’re making their way and Alex graduates…

And works in a machine shop. There was no future. No path to success. It all had to be eked out gig by gig.

And this whole paradigm no longer exists. Forming bands in high school, playing parties… Kids who are truly interested go to the School of Rock, as for parties, they’ve got deejays, no one wants to listen to mediocre covers, never mind originals.

Of course there are some still trying to do it. But they’re not ignorant like the Van Halen brothers, who hire someone who works for the label as their manager and then their road manager as his replacement, getting a terrible label deal in the process.

And it’s not about the trappings… It’s about the music, the show. Whatever money they do make they plow back into the show.

Where they blow household names, their heroes, off the stage.

But “Brothers” is not an endless recitation of star experiences. Yet the story of Ozzy Osbourne shooting decoys in his pond is pretty good.

Rather, this is a story of struggle, us vs. them.

And David Lee Roth looks good.

I know, I know, that seems impossible, with all the ultimate fights and breakup.

But Roth knows how to entertain. He’s got vision. And those lyrics…

Ted Templeman wants to kick Diamond Dave out of the band, because he can’t sing. But Alex knows…it’s all of them or nothing. I was taught this in music management, a group is an entity, fire one person and oftentimes you kill the entire act.

And they’re struggling and struggling, playing covers at Gazzarri’s, and then they play the Starwood and get signed.

Let me tell you, Van Halen were not a secret in Los Angeles. You’d see their name on marquees all over town in the seventies, when it was all about signed bands, not local bands. We were not in the hinterlands, we could see name brand entertainment every night, who was going to go to a show to see someone the labels passed over?

I certainly didn’t. And in truth, buzz was more about the outside, left field bands, than the more meat and potatoes Van Halen.

And the first time I saw them was when they opened for Nils Lofgren at the Santa Monica Civic, a gig Alex actually mentions in the book. Can you imagine Nils Lofgren headlining? What can I say, it was a different era. And Van Halen hit the stage totally out of tune with the Lofgren audience and Dave was doing his Jim Dandy routine and…it was almost laughable.

But then we heard “Runnin’ With the Devil” on KROQ. First, the Gene Simmons demo, and then the finished product from the debut album. It’s a one listen smash. It’s got everything, the changes, the dynamics, the whoops, the ENERGY! That’s what Van Halen was selling, they amped it up to 11 and then…who knows what would happen.

The girls came out, and Alex’s mother didn’t approve of them.

And Valerie Bertinelli showed up and Roth never got over it, didn’t even go to the wedding reception.

It’s the little things that break up bands. And the amazing thing is Alex knows this, when many don’t.

As for Eddie… What you learn most about is the relationship between the two. Edward spoke through his guitar, Alex steered the ship. And they hated interviews so they let Dave do them, who ultimately got drunk on the effort and…

Alex takes a few shots here. Talking about how Ted Templeman didn’t really understand their brown sound, and refused to put “Jump” on an earlier album, NO KEYBOARDS!

They don’t want you to grow, they want you to remain the same.

As for being pissed that Eddie played on “Beat It”… I don’t think it hurt the underlying band to the degree Alex does. In truth, I’d like to have heard Ed on more records in more styles. Van Halen did one thing, but Ed could do a lot more.

And seemingly half the book is a cut and paste job, quotes from other books and interviews.

And Sammy Hagar is not mentioned by name. Hell, the whole story ends when Dave goes solo, to his detriment. I’ve heard why Alex has a bug up his ass about Sammy…who knows if it’s the truth. And I agree, the quintessential Van Halen is with Diamond Dave, but “Best of Both Worlds” from “5150”? ASTOUNDING!

And most people have two personalities, the one on stage and the one off. But some don’t, like Gene Simmons and David Lee Roth. And it can be hard to live with them, although Alex cuts Dave a lot of breaks in this book.

So do you need to read “Brothers”?

Well, if you’re an aspiring musician, I heartily recommend it, there’s truth in here, articulated in a way that I’ve never seen a successful musician say it before.

And you’ll get a sense of what it was like for Alex and Ed growing up.

But you won’t get what happened backstage in Cleveland, endless radio interviews and chart numbers, groupie stories. Those are another book, which Alex will probably never write. It was a different era, in many ways not looked upon so fondly today. Hell, it looks like the Menendez brothers may go free! From laughable pariahs to being embraced in a culture where abuse is exposed and…

It was a long, long time ago. That’s another thing you’ll realize reading “Brothers.” Not only was Van Halen not part of the first wave of modern rock and roll, which began with the Beatles, they were not one of the AOR bands of the early to mid-seventies. No, Van Halen came after that.

And now that entire world is gone. Rock bands don’t top the chart, rappers and solo women do. Raunch is out of favor. But if you go back to those Van Halen albums the bedrock was Eddie Van Halen’s guitar. Sure, he could play. But that’s only half the battle. How do you write so it’s palatable, so it hits the listener in the gut and head at the same time, without looking like you’re showing off.

There’s power in those Van Halen records. They remain.

Eddie does not.

Alex can’t play drums, he uses a cane to walk.

And it’s one thing to replace a vocalist, quite another to replace the guitarist of the band, the true talent in Van Halen, the one of a kind Eddie Van Halen.

There was a moment there, and it wasn’t so short, when Van Halen was everywhere.

I won’t say they’re nowhere today.

Then again I will say, if you were there…

It wasn’t as good as I wanted it to be, but still, I’m satisfied.

You see there’s a bit too much plot. Too much story. Whereas the setup is what made the first season great, the relationships, the establishment of the landscape.

But the second season starts with a not so convoluted plot and you think you’re watching network TV, which is anathema, and then the soul of the series starts to shine.

The marriage of Kate and Hal, Keri Russell and Rufus Sewell, this is what we lack in most productions, an honest relationship. When Kate finds out Hal has been planning an over the top extravaganza and hasn’t clued her in on the details, she insists he sleep in the other bedroom.

I’ve lived this relationship. You know, where you have an argument and one or the other ends up sleeping on the couch. Thank god I’m not in that relationship anymore. I want my relationship to be bedrock, I don’t want it to be in question, I don’t want to go through every day wondering if a breakup is imminent and my whole life will be derailed.

Yet Kate is thinking of divorcing Hal.

And Hal knows Kate was about to sleep with David, the Foreign Secretary.

People know more than TV lets on. When Hal squeezes David to come to Scotland because he almost slept with his wife… That’s what you’re watching this series for, truth.

Not that this is the truth of the foreign service. In other words, the job is not as dynamic and thrilling as it is in this fictional depiction. Kind of like being a lawyer, which is oftentimes the most boring gig on the planet, but if you watch “Perry Mason”…

As for the issues at hand, the destabilization of the entire world, with an election looming within which our entire nation might be destabilized, it’s hard to get hard for some Russian doing dirty work akin to Prizgozhin. Now in real life, Putin took Prizgozhin’s life. But just like Bezos and Sion-Shiong are afraid to piss off Trump, the entertainment industry is afraid to piss off Putin so we’ve got this fakokta plot about Scottish secession that is just hard to get concerned about. Of course, the ultimate reveal, the ultimate payoff, is kind of worth it, then again, the last two episodes redeem the entire season, with the main plot points established, we can get back to the personal interactions, which make “The Diplomat” so great.

Keri Russell is 48, can you believe that? And here she plays against type, with her less than perfect hair. And when the VP brings this issue up…

And Russell can’t see the benefits of being married to Sewell, they have to be pointed out to her, which is the case in so many high-powered relationships, people are so focused on what they’re doing that they’ve got no perspective.

And the truth is if you live long enough you learn that you don’t get to the top by accident. I read that Kamala Harris took a briefcase to class at Howard. We would have laughed, but we aren’t running for President, we’re just at home pontificating. You’ve got to have sharp elbows, you’ve got to keep your eyes on the prize in order to have a chance to make it to the top, and odds are you won’t anyway.

And Kate and Hal are a typical power couple. Working their relationships, better in public than in the bedroom.

But when Kate says her marriage may not always work but it’s got a certain magic that sometimes does, that solves big problems… That’s the essence of the two of them, with no kids, with career and power key, sure there’s love involved, but in some ways their coming together was more like a merger.

And there’s the constant tension between Kate and Hal over the latter usurping her power. Can a man with experience be number two? And the strange thing is, in reality he’s doing it all for her. Then again, if it benefits her, it will ultimately benefit him.

And Allison Janney as the Vice President is perfect. She seems detached, like a classic #2, but slowly her power and manipulation shines through, as well as her need to get the right result, irrelevant of how you get there.

Morality. Choices. These are addressed well in this series. The truth is everybody at the top has to do things that are hard to live with. It takes a special kind of person to be able to live with themselves after taking these actions, can you sleep at night? Most people want to. But the “winners” are willing to be haunted, to compartmentalize, to march forward.

And favors are traded and the issue arises… To what degree are our governments telling us the truth? I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but when you watch “The Diplomat” you wonder…is the public out of the loop?

Russell holds the whole thing together. She plays against type. She doesn’t trade on her looks, but her intellect. And she occasionally gets it wrong, but she lives to be in the game.

We finished season 2 in two days. We started watching a series on Apple TV+ that I don’t want to talk about, because you’ll tell me what happened, and still we won’t get to the finale until Friday.

Which is why Netflix owns streaming television. The blueprint is there, yet all the competitors think they know better. They’re watching their dollars, MAX cut foreign production, they’re dribbling out product trying to create water cooler talk…that ultimately doesn’t occur. When was the last time someone brought up “The Old Man” to you? There was the premiere and then crickets.

Once again, we live in an on demand culture and if you don’t give the public all it wants, right away, people will go elsewhere. You can’t employ a twentieth century playbook in a twenty first century world.

And they never would have made this exact series for network.

And they never could have made “House of Cards” for network, not even pay cable wanted it. But that one series built Netflix. And further chances solidified it. No one can predict success in entertainment. And you can have the best intentions and still fail. Which is why you’ve got to take a lot of chances in different genres/fields. Something the record labels refuse to do.

Where do they go next with “The Diplomat”?

This is not “Ozark,” this is not “House of Cards,” maybe it’s the underlying comic tonality, the gravitas is not there. But let’s be clear, compared to the mindless drivel purveyed by the usual suspects, “The Diplomat” season 2″ is great.

If you liked the first season, watch the second.

It’s only six episodes. Enough to tell the story. You’re not bored, and you’re left wanting more.

I’m looking for a series that can intrigue me every night. Too often producers calculate how to appeal to the lowest common denominator, the widest audience, and the bland result appeals to few.

“The Diplomat” is trying. And it isn’t failing.

And in television, THAT’S A SUCCESS!