I guess music can’t change the world.

Or to put it another way, we haven’t had that spirit here since 1969.

Yes, in the sixties, there was a youthquake, and who did you look to for answers? MUSICIANS! Even the Beatles sang about revolution, and the Jefferson Airplane asked for volunteers and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young sang about Ohio (although that was 1970…)

In other words, music doesn’t hold the same place in society. Doesn’t have the same meaning, the same power.

Even though everybody in the industry will claim otherwise, just like the press could not see the massive wave of support for Trump.

Sure, the “New York Times” could get rid of Biden, but it’s got no cultural impact. If anything, it’s more powerful in gaming! Then again, there’s a greater thrill in Wordle and Connections than there is in today’s music. And games are inherently participatory, the essence of today’s society. And give the “Times” credit for diversifying, people are even purchasing subscriptions to Cooking… Then again, food is so exciting that people shoot pictures of it.

How come nobody can admit things have changed?

Oh that Taylor Swift, she’s going to endorse Harris and it’s gonna be over, Trump is toast!

No, Taylor Swift is a niche act. A large niche, but she doesn’t reach everyone, not even close. But we keep being plied with story after story about her in the media. Then again, most of them are about money. Are you really going to take instruction from a billionaire? She’s going to be fine no matter who is president.

Ditto Bruce Springsteen. You sell your rights for in excess of $500 million and you want to be seen as a man of the people, shilling for Harris by playing a song that was a hit forty years ago, that had no meaning back then either? “Dancing in the Dark”? That’s where Democrats are today. Even Kamala couldn’t accept any responsibility today. Just hope and believe and put your head down and work, to quote Joni Mitchell, “where’s that at, if you want me I’ll be in the bar.”

Taylor Swift is not Joni Mitchell. Nor is Gracie Abrams. But if you pay attention to the media, you’d think otherwise. And you’re really going to believe that Swift has your best interests at heart when she releases dozens of versions of the same damn album just so she can say she’s number one? This isn’t a woman of the people, this is a NARCISSIST!

As for Beyonce… Don’t they call her “Queen Bey”? Maybe that’s all you’ve got to know.

One after another musician came out in support of Kamala and it didn’t move the needle whatsoever.

Then again, the middle class has been hollowed out. Those running the DNC ended up on the right side of the financial divide, and forgot about everybody on the wrong side.

Now you can take a stand in your songs, in your life, but chances are you’re going to forgo a good percentage of your possible audience if you do so. Almost no one will take this risk today, even though everybody is not going to like you anyway. Acts are behaving like business people, Bezos and Soon-Shiong, instead of telling those who disagree with them to stay home.

And back in the day, musicians were as rich as anybody in America.

Then again, nobody was that rich back then. Then Reagan unleashed greed and tax rates were lowered and one thing is for sure in today’s America, no one can take anything from anybody, rich or poor, so don’t expect any change. Hell, they can’t even get rid of the carried interest rule!

And if you don’t know that is… It shows you don’t know where the real money is. Which you aren’t required to be aware of, but if you want to foment change, go deep into business as opposed to listening to the non-speak of Kamala Harris, who is afraid of alienating anybody who is not a dyed-in-the-wool Trumper. Meanwhile, Trump has an edge and he emerges victorious. Doesn’t this tell you all you need to know?

Trump is more edgy, more out there, more in your face, MORE ENTERTAINING, than any musical act. So Taylor Swift sings and dances for hours, believe me, listening to Trump, however inane he might be, has more entertainment value.

Back in the sixties successful musicians were us. The hoi polloi. They even wore their jeans on stage, just like us. They didn’t demand coronation, we gave it to them because we believed they deserved it.

Musical acts haven’t had that power since the internet. Because their true identities have been revealed, and most have turned out to be uneducated nitwits. The rockers of yore quoted Hesse and Kafka, today’s acts just keep talking about the extensions of their brand, trying you to buy more crap so they can get richer. What has this got to do with politics, belief? NOTHING!

We only care what you say if you’re living that life 24/7. If you later just tell us to do what I say… Why? You can’t even understand ticketing! That’s what I loved about the Oasis kerfuffle, they didn’t even understand the landscape they were operating in, do you expect me, or anyone, to take political advice from the Gallagher brothers? OF COURSE NOT!

But all we heard in left wing media was adulation for people who can sell tickets but can’t sell their ideas.

People see today’s music as entertainment.

And what is purveyed by the majors is anything but new and edgy.

And all the wankers believing Spotify’s the problem. Do you think Trump voters believe if you declare yourself a musician you’re entitled to earn a living playing music? Where is truth, where is reality?

The musicians abdicated their power long ago. The same media telling you to put down your smartphone is telling you musicians can move the needle, when they can’t.

Then again, if you’re Elon Musk or Joe Rogan… Their fans BELIEVE IN THEM! And it’s all about who they are and what they stand for, and their impact and financial success!

Whereas all musicians can do is whine. It’s always somebody’s else’s fault.

God, the entire Democratic party is made up of whiners.

It’s always somebody else’s fault. The system is rigged against them.

And the funny thing is the bleeding heart liberals standing up for minorities who ultimately disagree with them. Latin people? They don’t like Latinx. The most feminist blowback I get is from white males. We live in a no offense world. God, that school in New York taking a day off so its students could cope with the election results? Jerry Seinfeld stood up to that. We can’t get a musician to stand up for anything unless everybody in the industry signs their name, which almost never happens anyway.

The musicians are complaining about Spotify and AI and meanwhile, I don’t know where my next meal is coming from, my car was repossessed and I can’t get to work. You say you understand but then you keep telling me I’m wrong. You’ll tell me the economy is booming and maybe give me a handout, but address the underlying issues? OF COURSE NOT!

It’s simple but the Democrats make it complicated.

And the musicians will only show up if it makes them look good, burnishes their image. Take a stand outside the norm? Then again, we live in an industry rife with sexual abuse and no one will take a stand against it, companies just pay and have the abused sign an NDA.

I don’t want to be one of those right wing bloviators telling you not to pay attention to mainstream media. Then again, I’m separating fact from opinion. Only the big time media has boots on the ground. But their heads are up their ass. Reporters think they’re doing god’s work and they can’t be wrong. After all, they’re underpaid! But the right is not sympathetic, they’d tell the writers to go where the money is, just like Sam Kinison told starving Africans to go where the food is!

So let’s recap. The music industry lost control of the hearts and minds of the public decades ago. And put the knife in its own heart with Napster. It not only wouldn’t give the public what it wanted, IT SUED THEM!

Then labels would only sign acts that sounded just like the ones already successful, in fewer genres than ever before. You’re not giving me what I want and I should pay attention? This is why Netflix is so successful. Sure, they’ve got some brain dead shows appealing to many, but I keep up my subscription because of the quality niche shows, which have a fraction of the viewership.

And the acts… Anybody with money and a brain doesn’t become a musician. Odds of success are too low. So we’re left with the lower classes, who’ll do anything their handlers want them to, unlike the acts of yore who needed to do it their way.

So let’s get off our high horse and admit that Taylor Swift, BTS, even BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, do not represent what once was. It’s apples and oranges. Don’t tell me about chart positions and Grammy awards, there’s no ubiquity, certainly for almost all twenty first century acts.

What do you stand for?

I can’t even tell you who Kamala Harris is, and most people agreed with me, and that’s why she lost.

If you stand for something that means you’re willing to leave money on the table…in an era where no one leaves money on the table. The musicians used to be different, now they’re just like all the rest of America, money-grubbers.

So, I’m not a Republican, I’m not switching sides, I don’t endorse Trump or sexual abuse, I believe everybody is entitled to a roof over their head and food on their plate, and health care too!

But to succeed in life you have to take your lumps, lose sometimes. Today’s coddled progeny of the upper middle class and beyond can’t handle the truth. There are trigger warnings, if you get their pronouns wrong they lose their sh*t. Yes, I believe you should be entitled to your abortion, but that does not mean everything you believe is true, that you can’t look yourself in the mirror and see your flaws. And if you can’t admit your flaws, you can’t improve. And improvement leads to success.

Life in America is hard. The road to the top in music is longer with worse odds than ever before. So most people don’t even get started.

It takes a special kind of person to change the world, and Taylor Swift is not it.

And I dare say at this point Bruce Springsteen is not it either.

And most people in Nashville are afraid to choose sides, won’t venture an opinion in public, but at least they make the most honest music, that is palatable to and understood by many.

And to bring it up one more time…

The biggest act in recorded music is not Taylor Swift, but Morgan Wallen. But seemingly every Democrat cannot forgive him for uttering a word that’s in so many rap records that were sold to him by the industry. Furthermore, HE WAS DRUINK! Whenever I write about him…

People bring up this incident. Call Morgan a dumb hick.

There’s some evidence right there why Trump won. Do you think all the people paying good bread to see Wallen in stadiums think they’re ignorant? I’m sure not. But the Democrats keep telling so many Americans over and over again how they’re wrong and have their heads up their rear ends.

Then there are the people making fun of the Trump voters all over my computer today. Seems like even in the wake of this loss Democrats can’t learn anything.

Things are not the same as they always were.

Time to wake up.

It should not be this close.

Not that it’s over. We must remember 2018, when we went to bed and thought the Democrats had done poorly, but in the ensuing days found out the opposite.

But if Harris loses…

We have to blame Joe Biden, and the DNC.

When Joe Biden announced that he was stepping down, I instantly took to my computer and wrote that Kamala Harris should not be the candidate. My inbox went BERSERK! I have never seen so much vitriol in response to any piece I have ever written.

Now when I wrote it, I didn’t know that the selection of Kamala Harris was a fait accompli, I held out hope for a runoff process, a shortened campaign, amongst all those who wanted to throw their hat in the ring. As did James Carville and Ezra Klein. I was not out on the precipice alone.

But instantly there was a tsunami of support for Harris. And, once again, I couldn’t say a negative thing about her, whether it be in print or conversation. I was taking all the air out of the bubble, I was Debbie Downer, can’t we just enjoy it, she’s so fabulous, she’s going to win.

And if you go back to that July 21st article, and you can right here…

“”No to Kamala”: https://t.ly/M40Kq

You’ll find that I had three main points:

1. How poorly Harris did in 2020.

2. She’s cold.

3. She’s tarred by Biden’s record.

I thought it should be Whitmer or Shapiro. They’d be fresh meat, they wouldn’t be blasted on immigration, accused of doing little. There would not be talk of the national economy… It would be a fresh slate.

BUT NO!

Everybody on the inside knew better, and their minions agreed with them.

God, it reminds me of nothing so much as Napster. The record industry was disrupted and didn’t see it coming and wouldn’t admit internet distribution of music was the future. The industry kicked and screamed, sued its own customers, until Spotify came along fifteen years ago to save the industry from a death spiral.

Interesting. Shawn Fanning and Daniel Ek. Both considered pariahs by musicians today.

Let’s see… There was a great story in “The New Yorker” a few years back about how ideas are in the air. Darwin had a competitor. And that person could have been the household name. Music was coming to the internet, Napster was just the first step.

But if you listen to the Democrats, the internet is the enemy. You don’t hear Donald Trump and Elon Musk telling people to put down their smartphone. And while the Democrats kept saying it was about the ground game, Trump had little and as of this writing he’s winning.

Not that the losing team will accept any blame. Will endure a postmortem. I don’t expect a Capitol riot by the Democrats, a denial of the results, but I do expect them to blame Trump’s voters for their ignorance, exculpating themselves from any and all blame.

When in truth they’re the enemy, they’re the problem, they’re the fault.

Let’s be clear, if Trump succeeds, it will not be about his winning strategy, but the Democrats’ losing one. They handed it to him on a platter.

They kept on telling struggling Americans that the economy was good. Despite the entire nation being hurt by inflation.

And Trump may lie 24/7, but at least he knows it’s all about perception. The truth is secondary.

So what happens now?

I live in the excoriated California. Which most of the nation has been convinced is a hellhole, with swarms of homeless people. Think about that, the homeless people got SMART! They left New York and Chicago and their bitter winters, they escaped the heat and humidity of the south to come to a place where the weather is always good. The fact that all the homeless came to L.A. is an indication of the health, the bona fides, the sheer greatness of the city. Is homelessness a problem, does it need to be addressed? Absolutely! But our nation has flipped. Everybody’s out for themselves. And, if you don’t obey the orthodoxy of the left, you’re done for.

So we can get abortions in California. Unlike in North Carolina, builders didn’t lobby elected officials to build on floodplains. We keep hearing about all those damn regulations. Believe me, you want those regs during an earthquake.

The pronouns. The trigger warnings. The pro-Palestinian nonsense.

John Oliver did a whole piece on Sunday trying to convince Muslims to vote for Harris, even though she had a different vision for the Middle East than the one they wanted. How myopic, and how antisemitic. What about speaking to all the Jews who voted for Trump because he was strong on Israel?

Don’t go tit for tat, don’t tell me about Trump’s position on Ukraine.

But if you’re working hard to make ends meet do you want to listen to college graduates who make more money telling you how to live your life? Not accepting that things aren’t fantastic, despite the market soaring and soaring?

I’m just angering the same people convinced Harris was the one.

As for Walz… Turned out to be the biggest boondoggle of the campaign. Sure, he was warm and fuzzy, but watching the debate you could never say you wanted this guy a heartbeat away from the presidency.

Not that Kamala has shown a ton of leadership experience, which Whitmer and Shapiro have done.

Now in the coming days there’s going to be a lot of analysis of Kamala’s projected loss. And one thing is for sure, those involved won’t accept blame. They just can’t believe that they are the problem.

But they are.

We were told we had it in the bag because of women, who would come out in droves because of abortion.

That hasn’t happened. Just like no one seems to vote for a Democrat for fear of having a new Republican Supreme Court justice. And now RBG’s entire legacy has been tainted, she was selfish. Politics is a team sport. And Biden? He was one step into the grave right in front of our eyes, but he and his team still thought he should continue running. Don’t tell me to deny what I see with my own vision.

So what happens now?

I don’t want to fathom it.

But I’m angry at the holier-than-thou people who keep shutting me down and who refuse to address the underlying issues. And Joe Rogan agreed to interview Harris, but she couldn’t go to Austin to see him, she’d rather spend time in Bucks County. Didn’t they realize how many people Rogan speaks to? This again is the fallacy. That it’s all about retail politics, one on one, but that went out with the last century. Once again, we live in a digital world, and you exploit online. Hell, X/Twitter has become Trump central. Democrats just complained. Republicans can get their minions not to drink Bud Light, but the left can’t even get all their people to go to Threads, or some other social media platform.

The problem is you. Yup, you. You thought you knew better. People can’t make it on minimum wage, all the manufacturing jobs were shipped abroad and these workers are now doing service jobs, and I’m not saying Clinton shouldn’t have signed NAFTA, but there was no provision for the people who were squeezed by it, no way to bring them back into the economy with good jobs.

The Democrats remind me of all those people who can’t stop bitching about Ticketmaster, even though the tickets are expensive because that’s how the acts like them, and you’re paying the freight. If people can’t get it straight about this simple concept, understand where the fees go, what are the odds they can truly understand why Trump can win? No, they’ll just assign blame and wash their hands.

The future keeps rolling down the pike. You must adjust for it.

The Democrats are living in a fantasyland, whether Harris wins or not.

Bob I’ve been saying it for 10 years now. Virtually no artist making it big these days played live before they were famous.

Also, human nature is to take the shortest path to a goal involving the fewest other people. Make music on your laptop by yourself, post it, hope someone notices. Rinse and repeat.

That’s the world today.

Best,

Michael McCarty

CEO

Kilometre Music Group

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An unpopular opinion for sure, but this is one of the best/concise sentences I’ve read recently…

“We can have nostalgia for the past. But that does not mean we should legislate its continued existence.”

As you say below, there are a number of factors contributing to these closures; poor understanding of the needs of new audiences, a cost of living crisis (why spend £50 on a night out when you can save a little and head to a festival for the weekend for a much bigger experience), plus local authority intervention.

Mark Jennings

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Right you are, Bob

One of the other phenomenon in the “jazz club” world is that the ones that survive (like the Jazz Bakery in LA and The Sound Room in Oakland) are run as non-profit organizations by people that love and believe in the music.

Others (like Catalina Jazz Club in Hollywood) have expanded their booking to cabaret, comedy or other niche areas of the business.

Any way you slice it, the performer needs to have a decent following to fill the room or it is a losing proposition for all involved.

I am glad I am a performer and not a club owner!!!!

George Kahn

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HARTMANN’S LAW – If it aint good live, dump it!

You are correct, Sir. It is a digital game. The raison d’etre for nightclubs is to sell booze. But, smokers are rarely drinkers, and all the girls are online. The value of clubs is as incubators for artists to invest the 10,000 hours it takes to create a good repertoire and show. The threshold for entry is very low, However, the degree of difficulty is mired in  the hard truth: 10% of the competitors earn 100% of the money, and 1% of those earn 90% of the dough. Only true greatness can win. And a great live act is imperative.

Rock ’til you drop,

Hartmann

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I think there’s a difference between wanting to see live music and wanting to go to a club. Increasingly, I’m seeing more and more venues that aren’t “clubs” per se, but do host music. City Winery is a good example. As far as I can tell, the one here in Nashville is doing quite well. For the past several  months, my wife went to see live music somewhere on an average of once a week. None of  it involved going to clubs.

When something’s not working, you can close it down. Or, you can reinvent it.

Craig Anderton

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You’re spot on. The club scene is all but dead and I don’t think it ever really existed in my life or the time I spent playing clubs. I spent over 12 years (2010 to 2023) playing clubs in New England as an indie band. And it was a slog of an experience. Did I love playing with my band? Yes. Absolutely. Did we get better the more we played? Of course. Would people come to see us at 11PM on a cold Wednesday night in Boston? No! I barely wanted to be there! But I was always told you gotta play the bad slots to get to the good slots. The music industry, now that I think about it, isn’t that far off from gambling. But that’s for another time.

The last show my band played was in January 2023. I remember waiting around until 2AM to get, like, $120 – and split it four ways. The rest of my band went home shortly after our set, but someone had to stick around for the little cash we’d get. It was my band so I stuck around.

I’d leave my apartment around 6PM and get home after 2AM, to play for however many people (anywhere from 2 to 200 people depending on the night), for crumbs. It’s not even about the money for me. But the time. I would bring a book and hide in the corner somewhere while other bands played because I didn’t care about them. I was on this trajectory because I grew up hearing, “You gotta play live – sometimes to no one – and pay your dues. Then you’ll get a big fat record contract.” Well, needless to say, the former happened but the latter did not. Oh there were chances, but bands are hard. My singers would quit at the most inopportune times. And that’s why I started singing because I wanted a band and needed consistency.

But I digress.

I’m not sorry about any of it, but I know I missed the heyday of the club scene. And I’m kind of sad I did. But at the same time, I have never once gone to a random show at a random club to hear a random act. So why would I have gone had I been born at a different time? I remember thinking I was a problem within my ecosystem/community because I wasn’t super invested in the scene. I also don’t drink, so going to a club or a bar for a show is even less appealing.

I like to think my band was good, and at a different time, it would have been different. But who knows? If anyone wants to listen – www.amymantis.com/music – you can judge for yourself. (Feel free to take this link out if you share this in a mailbag. I’m not here to convince you I should be famous or whatever, but I’m sharing it as proof that I really gave it a go.)

Another thing is that there are so many more options for entertainment now! Do you want to go sit in a loud, dirty room listening to (often) mediocre bands you’ve never heard of? Or do you want to stay home and watch a great movie or TV show? Or, if you’re like me, you go to plenty of concerts – but for artists you know and love and trust. Last weekend, my boyfriend and I saw Duran Duran. They were fantastic! Over the last year or so we’ve seen John Mayer, Tedeschi Trucks (the best live band IMO), the Stones, Springsteen, Queen + Adam Lambert, Janet Jackson, Ringo Starr, and Duran Duran. I might be missing a few, but you can see what they have in common (with the exception of Tedeschi Trucks, but those that know, know).

We live in an interesting time. And while I do believe that people want to socialize, they don’t want to socialize at clubs and bars with live music and bad food – if they have food at all.

Live music will persist. It’s just going to be a very different scene than it was back in the day.

It already is.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Yours in music,

Amy Mantis

PS – while I may no longer be slugging it out on the non-existent club circuit, I’m by no means “done” as a musician or songwriter. I’ve pivoted to other musical endeavors because if I didn’t play music, I think I would die. I thought I would die if I didn’t “make it,” but since I’m still here at the old age of 34, I think I’ll be okay.

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Bob,

I could not disagree more with this.

First you are factually incorrect about Sam Smith, he played small and the large clubs in the US in 2013 and 2014 and only started in headlining Arenas in the US in 2015, if you first heard him in 2015 it might look like he started in Arenas.

If you look at Olivia Rodrigo or Sabrina Carpenter; they were both developed with millions spent by Disney. This isn’t a new model, as old as time. Not to take away from either of them, but their success is built of years of hard work and real INVESTMENT in them. The internet didn’t make them. They were not overnight. Their model is not one that many new artists have a chance at. And it is not anything like what you incorrectly say happened to Sam Smith.

But I think you fundamentally misunderstand the role of small clubs in an artist’s career. Small clubs are not the most important discovery outlet for new artists. You are right on that. The Internet is where the buzz builds. Clubs are where new artists LEARN how to be live artists. Where they learn their voice. Learn their craft. And learn stage presence. Learn how to speak to their audience, or even who their audience is. Often lots of this goes on without most people noticing.

You say “And don’t confuse Chappell Roan with the club business.” How is years of touring in clubs NOT part of her story? She played my 300 cap The Rebel Lounge twice opening for other acts, starting in 2017, SEVEN YEARS AGO. I saw her headline the 500 cap here and it was good. You say “She made it by opening for a superstar, she was in front of all those eyeballs.” But why did she stand out to those eyeballs? It’s because by the time she got those slots she had EXPERIENCE. She was ready. She had earned their attention. Everyone has seen that video of her playing Pink Pony Club in a park for 50 people. If you watch that video you would not say “This is a supper start,” no one sent that video to their friends at the time, it didn’t go vira then. But if you are used to developing talent you see it and know SOMETHING is there. But if you saw her at a festival this summer (I got to see Outside Lands) you saw a STAR. The difference between those performances isn’t the internet. It is hard work she put in on stage. If you put the girl from the park on stage in front of 75K people at Lollapalooza she wouldn’t have been ready for it and we wouldn’t be talking about her. Just compare that video in the park to her on SNL last weekend. It is the same song but the performance is categorically different, and that is due to her hard work. Thinking about Chappell Roan as some overnight success really diminishes her hard work.

I have seen so many Sold Out shows in clubs in the last few years for artists that had a TikTok moment and most of those acts never came around again. I have seen too many sold out shows where the crowd is lethargic until the “one” song comes and everyone pulls out their phones. So many of those acts suck live because their first show ever as a musician is on a sold out tour of house of blues or whatever large clubs, no one talks about them again or comes back because they were not ready. Fans know a bad performance when they see it. The internet can get a crowd to come one time, they get to say they saw the meme of the moment, but talent and skill win over a crowd and create fans. And you have to learn it. No one ever walks on stage day one with that.

On the other hand I have seen a ton of great artists that we had at Rebel that I have watched grow into great artists and when they have their viral moment people come and see them and are blown away by what they see. They don’t have one song, they have a full set, and more great songs than they can even fit in a set. And when these acts that have paid their dues and have their internet moment, the new online fans come to see them and those new fans know what they are seeing is real and they come back again and again and again.

We have had Mitski at Rebel 3 times, we had Charlie Crocket at Rebel 3 times, we had TV Girl there and had them in other small rooms, we had LANY, Khruangbin, Japanese Breakfast, Alex G, Louis The Child, Men I Trust and so many more. These are all great live acts that learned how to be great in clubs.

There are loads of acts with great streaming numbers that can’t sell tickets. You can get streams without ever being good live. But if you look at the acts selling tickets right now they ALL started in small clubs.

Stephen Chilton

Psyko Steve Presents

The Rebel Lounge

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Dear Mr. Lefsetz:

I write to respond to your letter, “Let the Clubs Close.”

Independent stages, including clubs, are still the place where artists start their live careers. How do we know this? The best examples of why this is true are the artists you mention in your letter.

Before opening for a superstar, Chappell Roan played independent clubs like Cannery Ballroom and First Avenue in 2017; Music Box and Rebel Lounge in 2018; Bowery Ballroom and Troubadour in 2022; and 9:30 Club and The Crocodile in 2023.

Before he played arenas, Noah Kahan was an unsigned artist playing original material at independent clubs like The Broadberry and Le Poisson Rouge in 2017; Cat’s Cradle and Metro in 2018; Neumos and Higher Ground in 2019; Beachland Ballroom and Orange Peel in 2021; and Washington’s and The Depot in 2022.

Artists don’t just appear on an arena stage overnight. More often than not, they start at an independent club.

And people show up to these shows, like they do every night (and some days) at independent stages across the country. For Chappell Roan and Noah Kahan, and so many other artists from every genre, starting in clubs can be hard, but it is not a fool’s errand. Far from it.

The reason these artists are successful is because they work incredibly hard – and independent stages sacrifice to ensure they have a place to start and grow their careers. These mom and pop entrepreneurial businesses not only support artists, but collectively funnel billions a year into local economies and support thousands of small businesses in communities around them throughout the U.S.

However, like clubs in the U.K., independent venues and festivals in the U.S. are struggling – and closing. They are grappling with inflation, rising labor costs, astronomical insurance costs, alcohol permitting issues, ballooning rent payments, threats to public safety, transportation and parking issues for patrons, predatory resellers making life harder for them and their customers, and a global conglomerate promoter using anti-competitive practices that threaten their existence.

We have much to learn from what the U.K. is experiencing, but the most important lesson is this: our independent clubs, festivals, and promoters should be fighting for the same things here in the U.S., and that includes financial assistance from governments. Texas took a first step in 2022 to create a fund to ensure the financial security of independent venues and Tennessee created a similar fund earlier this year to help artists and stages. Every state and locality should be doing the same – and the multinational conglomerate using their market power to suppress competition should have a role in paying for them. We should legislate the continued existence of independent stages, including clubs.

It may have been a while since you went to an independent club, so I invite you to join me one night. I’ll take you to a few. I’d love to remind you of what you may have known at one point: these cultural sanctuaries for fans and artists to connect over music and performance are a powerful force in every community that should be preserved. It’s not just nostalgia. The authentic experience people have in these rooms is still the truth.

Stephen Parker

Executive Director

National Independent Venue Association

Note: We all love the club experience, just like we loved Main Street and bookstores, the question is whether they’re economically viable, and if not, whether the government and more successful acts in larger venues should support them. Also, I want to draw a line between clubs that feature live bands and those that feature deejays. Video killed the radio star and deejays killed the guitar hero, there will always be a future in clubs with a deejay, who play already recorded music, in many cases, already commercially successful

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You said it best.

In my words:

Way back when, the only way to see undeveloped/developing acts were at clubs.  Today, we have YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Reels, etc.  We can sit on our couch and watch.  Is it a better experience? I dont know.  But for now, the consumer has voted. They aren’t going to the club and therefore, those clubs need to rethink their experience.

Darren Herman

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you are totally right on this. i had been booking clubs and my own shows for years…but by 2013 the shift was happening. i saw it coming and got out in 2015.

Yes i miss it. Yes i miss the bands! Yes i miss helping bands get to where they needed to go. it was always starting with opening and then moving your way up. once you could be in front of the headliner people would hear you and decide on their own.

it was always a natural progression. bands start at clubs then go to the palace then the palladium then off they go. pretty much goldenvoice would take over from there!

i could go on and on but what’s the point? things change and you go with it or you don’t. i chose to get out while i was on top.

thanks

Dayle Gloria

Scream
Club With No Name
The Viper Room

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Totally spot on! I used to love going to a club show in hopes of discovering my new favorite band. That’s not the case today. I can always check out the music beforehand somewhere on the internet. I only see live music that I’ve already heard before. The only time this isn’t the case is when I catch the tail end of an opener. But that’s becoming rarer. I will often times look up the opener on the internet before a show to see if it’s worth my while.  I just don’t see music anymore they I haven’t already heard digitally. I can even look up the setlist to see if I dig the set their playing. The way people experience live music has changed and the industry needs to adjust to that change. They will mean some awesome places have to shut down. I’m sorry for that but the solution is not to try and hold back natural change. We’ve got to accept the way it is.

John N. Hamilton

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I don’t know much about the UK club scene but clubs closing in the US is not necessarily about lack of attendance. It’s almost always about ownership / management taking their eyes off the ball.

Usually one or a combo of a few things:

– LYV or AEG (or a more sophisticated sharper business person) opens a club down the street and makes it extremely difficult to compete on artist guarantees so the club winds up with scraps and is unable to adjust.

– Landlord won’t renew a below market lease

– Can’t find a decent talent buyer / in house promoter – apparently what we do is rocket science

– Lack of sophistication / inability to adjust to or recognize newer business models (like digital marketing)

– Cruising on a great location and not putting enough effort into marketing / promo

– Burnt out owner or control freak refuses to loosen grip but no longer can keep up

– Ownership runs it like a personal keg party and doesn’t pay much attention to the actual business of being in business. This usually is hand in hand with cruising on a great location.

– Owner / buyer only likes one or two genres whose fanbases can’t sustain or are aging out (ex – all punk rock / all metal / all jambands) and the product goes stale.

Aside from the LYV / AEG situation and landlords wanting their vig, both sadly facts of life, the others are where the bargains are!

Dan Millen

(Note: By today’s standard, the Wiltern, a 2,300 seat venue, is considered by the business to be a club. I’m referring to venues with a max capacity of 500. Really, 400 or less.)

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No question that you’re right: clubs, especially the dreaded “pay-to-play” clubs, are doomed. But…

There is one kind of club that should stay open – places like the Write-Off Room and the Baked Potato here in LA. I’m sure you’re very familiar with these two clubs. Both are owned and run by musicians and each is a place for musicians who are not looking for record deals but just want to play in front of people for the love of it.

Session players, older musicians, road musicians in between gigs, all can play and personally I love to go check it out every once in a while. Billy Vera and the Beaters are coming this Saturday to the Write-Off and at the Baked Potato, the under-appreciated Sara Niemietz will be there Thursday and Luis Conte on Friday.

I for one love to go and hear great music played by great players who aren’t looking to climb the pop ladder.

Best,
John Boylan

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Bob, It’s not about “starting in clubs”, it’s as much about having places to actually ‘go and show’ after starting “online”; it’s about keeping club-level venues going as feeders to the bigger, established venues; and – scratch my eyes out – to re-energize people going out for actual live, physical music experiences that is anything other than big acts in big venues. There’s a whole bigger music industry that may never get near a chart (whatever the f*ck that means today), or even get to play in arenas. Deer Tick springs to mind, as a local N.E. example (so far!) Or old school farts (like us) who draw solidly but not constantly enough to fill 2,500+ venues.

You haven’t spent a lot of time in the past 20 years in clubs in the hinterlands (i.e outside the major cities) or in the UK. They are there – almost everywhere, and a lot of them struggling to keep the doors open, and that’s not just because people aren’t going. The commercail real estate market is a bastard. Sure – it’s a harsh road, but let’s not make it “highways or nothing”, FFS.

But, if Drumpf gets in…most entertainment that isn’t Kid Schlock or similar will eventually be banned, anyway. The barbarians are already through the damn gate.

Best,

Hugo Burnham

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Why must there be one or the other?

The internet and social media are a great tool for bands, comedians and other performers and for clubs to use to grow awareness for an artist. It used to be a Tower or Best Buy listening post or an end cap at Borders. This is so much more efficient.

The end of clubs is GREED and the related value of real estate. And short sightedness.

Our business (live entertainment) drives traffic to almost every other business. And… we give a city a soul and identity, which makes the places around it fertile for growth of apartments, hotels and businesses who want to house their offices there because they want to be able to compete for workers because they are in a cool place.

Gary Witt

The Pabst Theater Group | Milwaukee 

(414) 242-8253

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“in 2023, returned an entire gross profit across all 830 such venues in the UK of just £2.9 million. 43% of Grassroots Music Venues in the UK made a loss in 2023.“

“Budget Statement from Music Venue Trust”: https://t.ly/jjYVd

Those numbers are insane!? 830 venues only 57% are profitable and those that are averaging £6100 a year?!? No wonder they are all shutting down! Are these coffee shops that double as “stages”?

Working at a well known computer store on Black Friday, we would clear $1M selling the latest tech, in a single day!!

We can a discuss the cultural need for spaces like these, but wow! Pass the hat is not a business plan!

-Andrew Meadors

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A fair and solid position. I wouldn’t consider a forced tax from large venues or big acts to subsidize the little ventures, either. And the extension of our modern culture, called the internet, still lacks authentic roots.

Meanwhile, growth and awareness for live music continue to intrigue a young audience. Why? Because digital is cold and stale? Do generic record industry products sound the same? Is it lifeless because another pop singer is overproduced and sings “multiple impassionate writers” music? Who knows…

But, in honor of “the redlight district,” letting the clubs close or die is akin to stomping on the soil of culture. Authentic culture and the arts are only inspired by the soil and activities of the region, and deep down, you know that is true.

Nick Sample

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Obviously…you’ve never owned a physical venue offering true hospitality amidst a shared
experience with like-minded humans…if you had…you would truly appreciate the never ending need for “small” entertainment venues.
Stay home, go to your big backstage and feel special.  Your choice.

We’ll be out here discovering something truly  special, live and in person.

Mitchell Fox

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Spot on. Nobody gives a sh*t anymore about the unknown, unsigned act. Either you’re a legacy act, a new artist who went viral off TikTok or you’re a cover band getting paid to entertain built in crowds. I’ll be honest, “creating content” feels like a fool’s errand when it’s mostly just shouting into the abyss. And begging family and friends to come see you at the local bar isn’t very fun either. Clubs are the places where people discover bands. You’ll never get that experience on your phone. It was like those stupid chat apps we all tried during the lockdown. They were fun and novelty for 2 weeks then lost the appeal. We need to be there. So go ahead and close the clubs at your own risk.

Just Danny Jay

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‘…today’s generation doesn’t want to go to clubs to listen to the music…’ they want to go and socialize with the performance as background sound(track) to their lives. I was tempted to leave a club this past summer as the volume level of conversation, having dipped down when the group took the stage for its second set, then rose higher than it was during the break.
More’s the pity small venues are closing–post-lockdown economics are daunting at best–but if the audiences don’t want to pay attention to ‘unsigned/developing acts’, what’s a struggling operation to do (or a fledgling artist for that matter)…

Doug Collette

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Hey Bob, I Lived in a small Hudson river city where the small, mom-and-pop stores were ripping off the residents big time, making money hand over fist till Home Depot opened couple miles away! Best thing ever happened to that whole area

Schuyler Bishop

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So rock is dead and the clubs are dead? Which is the chicken and which is the egg? If new music starts on the internet I suspect that is because there are not enough performance opportunities for young artists to develop and be heard. Music clubs are not essential for creating every type of music but they are if you want great rock music. And yes, there are exceptions but they are exactly that, exceptions. I don’t want to go back either but I do want there to be great rock artists ahead.  

Steve Ward

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Today, at 74, I am blessed to have made a “Living” playing music. Performing Full-time in nightclubs, lounges, hotel circuits, Disney gigs, Playboy Clubs, etc. Starting in 1971, Like most “career musicians” I decided my retirement would be my choice and I would probably never pick a date as I love what I do.

The COVID-19 era in 2019 was the beginning of the end, followed by the Inflation of America’s economy, we saw budgets cut and doors closing all around us. Stages that would accommodate 7-piece bands now “swallow” a guitar player on a stool.

Your observations are Spot On, Bob. I suppose I could cut our budget and keep on keeping on, but financial realities override Performance Ego.

Thank you for your knowledge and insight on all things entertainment. 

Carry on and stay in tune…..

Blessings, Paul Ferguson

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Folks moving on to non production jobs due to Covid really hurt the talent pool. The lack of club gigs as a production training ground increases the challenge. You can’t have safe arena shows without talented experienced production staffing

Best Regards,

Steve Gietka

SMG Entertainment LLC

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I never considered the idea of letting clubs go away as you suggest, but you’ve touched a truth here.

I cut my teeth playing in clubs. It was what we did, and we grew from it, but even then it was a hard, grinding slog. My ears still ring from it. I still play occasional club shows, but only because I can sell out a small room and I enjoy it. It’s certainly not going to build my career. And I rarely go out to what we used to call the church of rock n roll, seeking that ephemeral buzz of discovering a great new live band (World Party at Cabaret Metro in Chicago, as an example). I saw Aimee Mann in a small club last week and it was… fine. She sounded great and had a tight band, but was it worth the work of going out?

And to be a young artist (like my daughter Fiona Grey) it won’t even give the little it gave us. I could at least pay the rent playing live original music in clubs. They haven’t had that spirit here for quite a while.

Provocative piece. Thanks for all you do.

Ralph Covert

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Kids don’t develop live chops playing to Tik Tock. Ultimately will affect the big shows when people get fed up paying big bucks to see mediocre performers.

Kelly Breaks

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‘So, let’s say I even want to go out to a club. Do I really want to hear some unsigned band playing original material, drowning out my conversation? ABSOLUTELY NOT!”

An unsigned band playing original material in a club is the essence of everything you have written about for years.

Cavern Club anybody?

Clubs can fail for a number of reasons, most likely it’s the rent. The social aspect of a live music experience in a small sweaty club is one of the building blocks of the music business yesterday and today. Lose them and you will see a void in the infrastructure of music. Doormen, ticket takers, bartenders, roadies, sound techs, and groupies are all part of the show, not to be found on the internet.
A tax on larger venues to support smaller ones is enlightened self interest. Only a pig wouldn’t see that.

Patrick Lyons
Veteran FORMER club operator

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In many ways, Starbucks’ struggles with customer dissatisfaction reflect a broader trend across industries where consumers are increasingly drawn to unique, smaller establishments rather than large chains. For coffee lovers, the appeal of independent coffee shops lies not only in a desire for high-quality, artisanal brews but also in the experience that comes with visiting a local, intimate venue. These coffee shops often prioritize craftsmanship and community over transactional efficiency, providing a more personalized and curated atmosphere that contrasts with the often impersonal feel of a big chain.

Similarly, while the music industry has shifted largely to an online model, many people still crave physical spaces that foster genuine connection and creativity. Just as some prefer independent coffee shops over Starbucks, there’s a similar allure in live, local music venues where intimacy, artistry, and a sense of belonging take precedence over scale and commercialization. In the case of coffee, it’s less about “bougie” preferences or political affiliations and more about a desire for authentic, grounded experiences in a fast-paced, digital world. These independent coffee shops and smaller venues offer something chains can’t: a space where local culture and personal connection flourish, making them an alternative to the corporate ubiquity of brands like Starbucks and Live Nation.

Jeremiah Younossi

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I get what you’re saying but I can’t get behind the idea of letting clubs close even if I’m not convinced the tax on larger gigs is the right approached.

I have worked with too many people who do a good job running venues in Wales and not only do they build their business ethos on original music, but wider arts and focusing on being a place that ultimately serves the community. And that’s a good alternative for the times that any of us have had a bit too much of browsing online.

I do genuinely believe these places can be well run, and allow people to build their acts and get bodies in. Not all of them sure, but not every act is going to be in the scarcity game and sky rocket from internet to securing a high profile support acts.

There needs to be a decent range of venues for live music to be presented and the opportunity for any great quality act to shine through and raise their profile.

Rayan Elliott

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Thanks Bob,so true.But a few clubs have started having Happy Hour shows for us oldsters.Dinner and drink specials,and to see a live band play before 9:45 pm brings in people.Thanks Bob,stay well,Ted Keane

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I think you’re missing the larger point…the socialization.
You can have your beer delivered and listen to your music on line…it’s very efficient …but it isn’t the same as going to the pub…or the club.
Yes, the world and the business world has changed but not always for the better.
Efficiency vs humanity, pick one? Is that where we are? May be.
But it isn’t better…it isn’t even good.

Alan Crane

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Bob, you may be right about the economics but not the heart of music for me. I have seen many famous and not so famous acts in small venues.

 

I don’t want to watch artists on a jumbotron with 30,000 of my closest friends. I’d rather experience the vibe and connection on stage.

 

–albhy galuten

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What you call socialization online is de- socialization, which is why half the people in this country are emotionally and spiritually dysfunctional and can be turned into an angry mindless cult. It’s also why you are making an ersatz living lobbing pecadillos into the ethersphere. Get a life Bob. Go to a club. Have a beer. Look a girl in the eye. Listen to a musician that has the guts to do it live

John Gunn

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Kind of like the only folks hyped about major labels are the ones still cashing a major-label paycheck—and that club’s getting smaller by the day. Truth is, the only ones clinging to these fading relics—music videos, radio, the rest—are the last few who still pull a paycheck from them. Time changes everything and time is up.

You get the picture. The credits are rolling, and the audience has already left.

Sal Salami

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You miss the point .

The clubs keep the industry going. They give a place for artists to learn their craft (song writing and preforming) on the way up and a survival income for those on the way down.

Think comedy clubs, the incubator for all the new comedy talent.

Some people even like the club experience for both.

Ron Stone

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Interesting take, Bob, but let’s unpack idea that clubs are obsolete. That take that might sound logical at first blush, but the notion that clubs are relics, outpaced by the digital age and streaming algorithms, never dips beneath surface-level analysis. Clubs aren’t nostalgia factories; they’re the engine room of musical culture. They’re where the weird and wonderful ideas are tested in real-time, where bands play until their fingers are raw, and where audiences still get to feel something unfiltered. Let’s be real: nobody who wants to have a leisurely chat with friends goes to a club featuring live music. That’s not their purpose, never has been. Live music clubs are for people who want to feel music, the kind of people who let sound wash over them until it’s a full-body experience. It’s not background noise; it’s the main event. The notion that a club should cater to casual conversation misunderstands the whole point. A live music venue is a temple to decibels and discovery, not a lounge where you sip cocktails and talk about your week. If that’s what somebody’s after, there’s a bar down the street for that.

Sure, Sam Smith can go from streaming sensation to sold-out arena overnight. But that’s an outlier, not a blueprint. The real music ecosystem still starts with that low stage, that sticky floor, that hum of anticipation when a band you’ve never heard of plugs in. As someone who has covered live music for thirty years, I assure you that this is anything but a toothless, romantic ideal. I’ve seen our local metal club packed to the gills on a Tuesday night to catch sets from obscure European death metal bands passing through town. And if that’s not niche enough, know that the club is normally at capacity at or before the first support band. This is happening everywhere! There’s still an undeniable hunger for live music in all its forms, and it’s not the arenas with their spectacle and LED overload that satisfy it—it’s the clubs. Those cramped, dimly lit rooms are where that thirst gets quenched, where the raw, unfiltered essence of live performance still thrives.

Supporting these venues isn’t clinging to the past; it’s safeguarding the future. Let them close, and all we’ll have left is music that’s algorithm-approved and frictionless—a world where the lifeblood of music is sapped dry.

Best regards,

Joe Daly
Freelance Contributor
Metal Hammer, Classic Rock, Men’s Health, Bass Player et al.

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I like your posts, you share a lot of interesting views on a multiple of issues.

When it comes to clubs I’ve always held the view that watching a band play live in a club is more often than not a much better experience.

Better than listening to music on the radio or cds or even vinyl. Music was meant to be heard/experienced live.

As for the arena and stadium shows most people are watching gigantic flat screens. The performers look like tiny toy soldiers to most of the audience. There is a great vibe from being with a large crowd displaying their appreciation for the same band. But seeing the Stones at the El Mocambo (Toronto, Chinatown) in the mid seventies was a hell of a more enjoyable experience than seeing them at the Scotiabank Arena.

Bars are closing because it’s no longer a joke to drink and drive like back in the day when Johnny Carson bragged about being stopped once again in his monologues.

Getting home safely was a badge of honour.

My experience with putting on shows in bars is limited to 140 shows in 11 years in Vancouver area. I’ve seen the change as laws became stricter and more screening resulted in ever increasing convictions.

Not only did the audience begin to dwindle but those who came drank very little and bar owners countered with raising prices for food and drink.

As George wrote, All Things Must Pass.

Rodney Dranfield

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Never thought of it this way, and boy is this sobering and sad to old rock & rollers like myself.  However I feel a bit differently, because it was rarely/never the untested, unheard of bands that I went to see in small clubs.  They were the SUPPORT acts for the cool bands on the way up that had often times just been signed, or were about to be.  I forget who opened and it doesn’t matter, but this paradigm is what allowed me to watch Ian Hunter with Mick Ronson(!!) from 10 feet away in Huntington Beach.  Or Van Halen at the old KROQ Cavern Club (is that what they called it?) in Hollywood, literally when the first record was being released.  We all have those stories (Patti Smith at the Golden Bear!), and none of those bands were big enough (yet) to play the big rooms.  Aw well, I’ll cuddle up with my memories, and be glad that I was part of the “live music generation”!

Young Hutchinson

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With reference to “Let the clubs close”…. Lets NOT.

I read with interest your commentary and whilst I think you have some valid points you’re also missing something that is important. From your prospective clubs don’t really offer anything exciting anymore and you’re not far wrong but you are wrong because it really depends on the club.

You cant tell me the clubs in Las Vegas are closing, they are not. They are paying David Guetta over a million dollars a show to play there… in a club…. !!!!!!! and the clubs are packed and people pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a table and drink the night away surrounded by other people paying tens of thousands of dollars to see DJ’s like David Guetta play.

So it all comes down (in my opinion) to the offering. If you have a sh*tty club with sh*tty sound and sh*tty DJ’s and sh*tty bathrooms with sh*tty floors and staff with sh*tty attitudes then yes, I agree people have had enough of that and they are leaving those clubs like rats off a sinking ship.

As an ex pat Englishman who has lived in the states for 25 years and has been in the music business all my life I can tell you that you just cannot get away with sh*tty anymore. Young people still want to go out and still do. Sound Nightclub in Los Angeles has firmly established itself as one of the longest running nightclubs catering to underground dance music and has operated for well over 10 years. It’s still rammed! So why when all these clubs are closing is Sound working? Well it’s simple. It’s the offering. It’s treating people who pay their admission fee like human beings and giving them an experience they can value.

Now, there is another part to this puzzle and that is the talent/music etc. We’re in an age where Dj’s / Producers need to prove value. Gone is the day of the DJ booth in the corner and the people dancing without a thought or care to who is playing. Now it’s about the act having their hands in the air with the crowd reacting to them. You cant really connect like that with your audience at a festival so the club becomes the under play or the Petri dish but either way you’re programming what people actually want and if you get it right, like they say, build and they will come. The talent love it when they can see people faces, the can see the reaction to the latest tune that the literally made on their laptop on the way to the gig….Its their chance to try things out, to express themselves, to take chances. They don’t get that at festivals. We don’t need live club music to turn into Spotify where its a numbers game…..

With the cool off on festivals and the desire for people to have an elevated experience and not have to hold their nose and close their eyes to relive themselves in a sh*tty porta potty, or have to listen to 60-80% of the line up they did not come to see, its clubs and interesting bespoke venues that are leading the way and whilst English clubbing my be in the “toilet” I am here to tell you that Los Angeles it is not and I do not see it being so anytime soon. BUT, you have to work it, you have to work hard to get everyone across the door, to convince the talent they should play, to make sure that the absolute maximum amount of folks walk out happy, that they don’t feel like they have been bent over with a heavy door/ticket charge with a massive ticketing fee, that the drinks are good, that the bar tender was nice to you and thanked you, that the door staff are friendly, the the sound was excellent and the lights were fantastic. Cos if you don’t, they ain’t coming back.

Long live nightclubs:)

Keep up the good work Bob.

Dave Ralph – Framework

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As a long -term artist manager here in the UK and former chairman of the MMF UK, I can assure you the vast majority of managers here would disagree with you… Not only the managers, but the agents, festivals and the Big Acts who would actually Happily contribute £1 /$1 a ticket to the cause….. many many promoters too..

 

If artists are not able to develop their live careers through a ‘ladder process’, ie small clubs – larger venues – festivals, then on to larger venues and festival main stages and eventually arenas and stadiums…. Where the hell are the Coldplays, Arctice Monkeys, Oasis’s of the future going to hone their craft and build an audience ?

 

Clubs are NOT just about rock music… they support music from All genres, Jazz, Grime, HipHop, Folk… you name it…. For a healthy and diverse range of music, those dedicated venues are essential…. Not only for the local music markets in each city, but for local communities too…

 

Unless you happen to want an endless sequence of solo pop artists to dominate the future music landscape FOREVER… then small venues are ESSENTIAL to the music eco-system For The Future.

 

Kids DO want to go to see bands play in clubs… I still go to packed shows in small clubs several times a week…. however, those clubs / pubs are making very little money and are becoming fewer and fewer … Why ? because the business rates (local city taxes), health and safety and security costs are sucking ALL the money up and making it not only unprofitable but loss making.

 

“Boo hoo, Tough Sh*t, that’s progress” you say… “kids can get all they want from ‘screens’”  But imagine a world without these places ?? where kids stay at home and look at their screens without ever going out with their pals and experiencing Real Live Music and…. Real Life…. What a poorer, sadder miserable world it will be….

 

“The chance of building it from your local club, bigger and bigger into stardom, have never been lower”…. Yes because the places they can play are fewer and fewer…. Venues closing because of those rising costs left right and centre  and don’t give me that “oh they should just double the ticket prices” argument, please!

 

Yes music lovers can go to One Big Show a year at the kind of ticket prices you seem to think are “realistic” but how is that satisfying anyone but the Artist and Promoter of that show ?

 

You say; “Do I really want to hear some unsigned band playing original material, drowning out my conversation? ABSOLUTELY NOT!”   Dude…. Why are you going to a club to have a conversation ?? You are there to there to see a musician deliver their ‘best shot’ for YOU….

 

There is literally Nothing as good as seeing an amazing band in a tiny venue and then years later to be able to say “I Was There”…

 

No…. the loss of these venues will be to the cultural detriment of society as a whole and to the detriment of the lives of our children.

 

Those who are trying to change that should be commended !

 

Stephen Budd

Record-producers.com

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I believe strongly in the wisdom of the market to determine what sort of art is viable and “good.” 

If the product isn’t good enough, or there’s a better product available elsewhere, people will migrate to new venues and activities.

Here’s my take, admittedly idiosyncratic and personal, on the evolution of music clubs for my generation (I’m 60) and immediate followers, from the pre-punk era through the mid-80s and beyond. During that period, the live music scene in most big cities evolved from highly-skilled cover bands playing at popular venues to decent crowds who wanted to drink and dance to good music to, post-punk, a lot of mostly crappy to mediocre indie/original bands playing in smaller, funkier venues to their friends who were also in bands, with everyone there mostly in it for the hang/lifestyle, not the quality of the music. Certainly, no one was dancing. 

Trust me, in Seattle, the average night with 3-4 bands on the bill at the Vogue in the 80s or the Crocodile in the 90s decidedly did not feature 3-4 Nirvanas, Pearl Jams, Soundgardens. The gems were rare.

Side note: Of course, there were and are exceptions. E.g., live country music is always popular for drinkers and dancers and requires skilled players and singers. Austin, Nashville, some other cities have maintained a thriving working musician scene. But Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, LA, Boston, NY, DC…the 80s and 90s saw small rock clubs explode in popularity in these towns. 

So…for years, while catching a rising star at a dive club could be an ecstatic experience (and very infrequent), most of the music was not very good. But you went out anyway because going out and drinking a lot of cheap beer and hanging out with your friends and being part of the vibe and the scene was the most fun thing to do.

But not anymore. If you’re a young person living in one of those cities these days, you’re not pulling coffees and paying $300 for your monthly share of a house rental with your four bandmates and mostly interested in living a bohemian urban lifestyle. You probably work at Amazon or Google and make $150k+ a year, and you’d rather go to the climbing gym or stay at home on Twitch than go out with a bunch of people you don’t know (and never will know, because you’ll move to another city for a new job within 12-36 months) to hear music and watch performers that are mediocre at best, often just plain unskilled and crappy. Or if you do want to go to a music club, you go to a dance club featuring a DJ. Because you know the music will be good (if you like that sort of thing). 

The post-punk music club product that drew crowds in urban centers was never the music — the music was very rarely good enough to provide that draw. The product was the lifestyle, the scene, the vibe, the attraction of living on the margins and knowing things that other people didn’t know because they didn’t have the cojones to go to that part of town on a Saturday night. That’s all gone. We have the internet — everyone knows everything, instantly. No secret spots. No margins left in the big cities, cities that, culturally speaking, are victims of their own success, having priced out anyone and anything that could be considered marginal. 

So with the music never having been good enough on average and the vibe and scene having dissipated for multiple reasons…the market has moved on.

More importantly and optimistically, Bob, think snow! La Niña or bust!

best,

dave dederer