Bob I’ve been saying it for 10 years now. Virtually no artist making it big these days played live before they were famous.

Also, human nature is to take the shortest path to a goal involving the fewest other people. Make music on your laptop by yourself, post it, hope someone notices. Rinse and repeat.

That’s the world today.

Best,

Michael McCarty

CEO

Kilometre Music Group

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An unpopular opinion for sure, but this is one of the best/concise sentences I’ve read recently…

“We can have nostalgia for the past. But that does not mean we should legislate its continued existence.”

As you say below, there are a number of factors contributing to these closures; poor understanding of the needs of new audiences, a cost of living crisis (why spend £50 on a night out when you can save a little and head to a festival for the weekend for a much bigger experience), plus local authority intervention.

Mark Jennings

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Right you are, Bob

One of the other phenomenon in the “jazz club” world is that the ones that survive (like the Jazz Bakery in LA and The Sound Room in Oakland) are run as non-profit organizations by people that love and believe in the music.

Others (like Catalina Jazz Club in Hollywood) have expanded their booking to cabaret, comedy or other niche areas of the business.

Any way you slice it, the performer needs to have a decent following to fill the room or it is a losing proposition for all involved.

I am glad I am a performer and not a club owner!!!!

George Kahn

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HARTMANN’S LAW – If it aint good live, dump it!

You are correct, Sir. It is a digital game. The raison d’etre for nightclubs is to sell booze. But, smokers are rarely drinkers, and all the girls are online. The value of clubs is as incubators for artists to invest the 10,000 hours it takes to create a good repertoire and show. The threshold for entry is very low, However, the degree of difficulty is mired in  the hard truth: 10% of the competitors earn 100% of the money, and 1% of those earn 90% of the dough. Only true greatness can win. And a great live act is imperative.

Rock ’til you drop,

Hartmann

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I think there’s a difference between wanting to see live music and wanting to go to a club. Increasingly, I’m seeing more and more venues that aren’t “clubs” per se, but do host music. City Winery is a good example. As far as I can tell, the one here in Nashville is doing quite well. For the past several  months, my wife went to see live music somewhere on an average of once a week. None of  it involved going to clubs.

When something’s not working, you can close it down. Or, you can reinvent it.

Craig Anderton

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You’re spot on. The club scene is all but dead and I don’t think it ever really existed in my life or the time I spent playing clubs. I spent over 12 years (2010 to 2023) playing clubs in New England as an indie band. And it was a slog of an experience. Did I love playing with my band? Yes. Absolutely. Did we get better the more we played? Of course. Would people come to see us at 11PM on a cold Wednesday night in Boston? No! I barely wanted to be there! But I was always told you gotta play the bad slots to get to the good slots. The music industry, now that I think about it, isn’t that far off from gambling. But that’s for another time.

The last show my band played was in January 2023. I remember waiting around until 2AM to get, like, $120 – and split it four ways. The rest of my band went home shortly after our set, but someone had to stick around for the little cash we’d get. It was my band so I stuck around.

I’d leave my apartment around 6PM and get home after 2AM, to play for however many people (anywhere from 2 to 200 people depending on the night), for crumbs. It’s not even about the money for me. But the time. I would bring a book and hide in the corner somewhere while other bands played because I didn’t care about them. I was on this trajectory because I grew up hearing, “You gotta play live – sometimes to no one – and pay your dues. Then you’ll get a big fat record contract.” Well, needless to say, the former happened but the latter did not. Oh there were chances, but bands are hard. My singers would quit at the most inopportune times. And that’s why I started singing because I wanted a band and needed consistency.

But I digress.

I’m not sorry about any of it, but I know I missed the heyday of the club scene. And I’m kind of sad I did. But at the same time, I have never once gone to a random show at a random club to hear a random act. So why would I have gone had I been born at a different time? I remember thinking I was a problem within my ecosystem/community because I wasn’t super invested in the scene. I also don’t drink, so going to a club or a bar for a show is even less appealing.

I like to think my band was good, and at a different time, it would have been different. But who knows? If anyone wants to listen – www.amymantis.com/music – you can judge for yourself. (Feel free to take this link out if you share this in a mailbag. I’m not here to convince you I should be famous or whatever, but I’m sharing it as proof that I really gave it a go.)

Another thing is that there are so many more options for entertainment now! Do you want to go sit in a loud, dirty room listening to (often) mediocre bands you’ve never heard of? Or do you want to stay home and watch a great movie or TV show? Or, if you’re like me, you go to plenty of concerts – but for artists you know and love and trust. Last weekend, my boyfriend and I saw Duran Duran. They were fantastic! Over the last year or so we’ve seen John Mayer, Tedeschi Trucks (the best live band IMO), the Stones, Springsteen, Queen + Adam Lambert, Janet Jackson, Ringo Starr, and Duran Duran. I might be missing a few, but you can see what they have in common (with the exception of Tedeschi Trucks, but those that know, know).

We live in an interesting time. And while I do believe that people want to socialize, they don’t want to socialize at clubs and bars with live music and bad food – if they have food at all.

Live music will persist. It’s just going to be a very different scene than it was back in the day.

It already is.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Yours in music,

Amy Mantis

PS – while I may no longer be slugging it out on the non-existent club circuit, I’m by no means “done” as a musician or songwriter. I’ve pivoted to other musical endeavors because if I didn’t play music, I think I would die. I thought I would die if I didn’t “make it,” but since I’m still here at the old age of 34, I think I’ll be okay.

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Bob,

I could not disagree more with this.

First you are factually incorrect about Sam Smith, he played small and the large clubs in the US in 2013 and 2014 and only started in headlining Arenas in the US in 2015, if you first heard him in 2015 it might look like he started in Arenas.

If you look at Olivia Rodrigo or Sabrina Carpenter; they were both developed with millions spent by Disney. This isn’t a new model, as old as time. Not to take away from either of them, but their success is built of years of hard work and real INVESTMENT in them. The internet didn’t make them. They were not overnight. Their model is not one that many new artists have a chance at. And it is not anything like what you incorrectly say happened to Sam Smith.

But I think you fundamentally misunderstand the role of small clubs in an artist’s career. Small clubs are not the most important discovery outlet for new artists. You are right on that. The Internet is where the buzz builds. Clubs are where new artists LEARN how to be live artists. Where they learn their voice. Learn their craft. And learn stage presence. Learn how to speak to their audience, or even who their audience is. Often lots of this goes on without most people noticing.

You say “And don’t confuse Chappell Roan with the club business.” How is years of touring in clubs NOT part of her story? She played my 300 cap The Rebel Lounge twice opening for other acts, starting in 2017, SEVEN YEARS AGO. I saw her headline the 500 cap here and it was good. You say “She made it by opening for a superstar, she was in front of all those eyeballs.” But why did she stand out to those eyeballs? It’s because by the time she got those slots she had EXPERIENCE. She was ready. She had earned their attention. Everyone has seen that video of her playing Pink Pony Club in a park for 50 people. If you watch that video you would not say “This is a supper start,” no one sent that video to their friends at the time, it didn’t go vira then. But if you are used to developing talent you see it and know SOMETHING is there. But if you saw her at a festival this summer (I got to see Outside Lands) you saw a STAR. The difference between those performances isn’t the internet. It is hard work she put in on stage. If you put the girl from the park on stage in front of 75K people at Lollapalooza she wouldn’t have been ready for it and we wouldn’t be talking about her. Just compare that video in the park to her on SNL last weekend. It is the same song but the performance is categorically different, and that is due to her hard work. Thinking about Chappell Roan as some overnight success really diminishes her hard work.

I have seen so many Sold Out shows in clubs in the last few years for artists that had a TikTok moment and most of those acts never came around again. I have seen too many sold out shows where the crowd is lethargic until the “one” song comes and everyone pulls out their phones. So many of those acts suck live because their first show ever as a musician is on a sold out tour of house of blues or whatever large clubs, no one talks about them again or comes back because they were not ready. Fans know a bad performance when they see it. The internet can get a crowd to come one time, they get to say they saw the meme of the moment, but talent and skill win over a crowd and create fans. And you have to learn it. No one ever walks on stage day one with that.

On the other hand I have seen a ton of great artists that we had at Rebel that I have watched grow into great artists and when they have their viral moment people come and see them and are blown away by what they see. They don’t have one song, they have a full set, and more great songs than they can even fit in a set. And when these acts that have paid their dues and have their internet moment, the new online fans come to see them and those new fans know what they are seeing is real and they come back again and again and again.

We have had Mitski at Rebel 3 times, we had Charlie Crocket at Rebel 3 times, we had TV Girl there and had them in other small rooms, we had LANY, Khruangbin, Japanese Breakfast, Alex G, Louis The Child, Men I Trust and so many more. These are all great live acts that learned how to be great in clubs.

There are loads of acts with great streaming numbers that can’t sell tickets. You can get streams without ever being good live. But if you look at the acts selling tickets right now they ALL started in small clubs.

Stephen Chilton

Psyko Steve Presents

The Rebel Lounge

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Dear Mr. Lefsetz:

I write to respond to your letter, “Let the Clubs Close.”

Independent stages, including clubs, are still the place where artists start their live careers. How do we know this? The best examples of why this is true are the artists you mention in your letter.

Before opening for a superstar, Chappell Roan played independent clubs like Cannery Ballroom and First Avenue in 2017; Music Box and Rebel Lounge in 2018; Bowery Ballroom and Troubadour in 2022; and 9:30 Club and The Crocodile in 2023.

Before he played arenas, Noah Kahan was an unsigned artist playing original material at independent clubs like The Broadberry and Le Poisson Rouge in 2017; Cat’s Cradle and Metro in 2018; Neumos and Higher Ground in 2019; Beachland Ballroom and Orange Peel in 2021; and Washington’s and The Depot in 2022.

Artists don’t just appear on an arena stage overnight. More often than not, they start at an independent club.

And people show up to these shows, like they do every night (and some days) at independent stages across the country. For Chappell Roan and Noah Kahan, and so many other artists from every genre, starting in clubs can be hard, but it is not a fool’s errand. Far from it.

The reason these artists are successful is because they work incredibly hard – and independent stages sacrifice to ensure they have a place to start and grow their careers. These mom and pop entrepreneurial businesses not only support artists, but collectively funnel billions a year into local economies and support thousands of small businesses in communities around them throughout the U.S.

However, like clubs in the U.K., independent venues and festivals in the U.S. are struggling – and closing. They are grappling with inflation, rising labor costs, astronomical insurance costs, alcohol permitting issues, ballooning rent payments, threats to public safety, transportation and parking issues for patrons, predatory resellers making life harder for them and their customers, and a global conglomerate promoter using anti-competitive practices that threaten their existence.

We have much to learn from what the U.K. is experiencing, but the most important lesson is this: our independent clubs, festivals, and promoters should be fighting for the same things here in the U.S., and that includes financial assistance from governments. Texas took a first step in 2022 to create a fund to ensure the financial security of independent venues and Tennessee created a similar fund earlier this year to help artists and stages. Every state and locality should be doing the same – and the multinational conglomerate using their market power to suppress competition should have a role in paying for them. We should legislate the continued existence of independent stages, including clubs.

It may have been a while since you went to an independent club, so I invite you to join me one night. I’ll take you to a few. I’d love to remind you of what you may have known at one point: these cultural sanctuaries for fans and artists to connect over music and performance are a powerful force in every community that should be preserved. It’s not just nostalgia. The authentic experience people have in these rooms is still the truth.

Stephen Parker

Executive Director

National Independent Venue Association